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  #1  
Old 06-03-2003, 11:54 PM
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86 2.3-16 timing chain?

I started to hear some rattling noise from the engine and when I raise the engine RPM the rattle will go away. It sounds like the timing chain is hitting against the timing chain cover. I'm a little afraid to drive it now because I heard it may take out the engine if the chain break loose.
I'm thinking about replacing the chain, but while I'm at it what else should I replace with it?? And what are things that I should take precaution? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.

Alex
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2003, 04:03 AM
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What's the mileage on your car? Normally the timing chain should be replaced every 90-100k miles or so.

As far as what else should be replaced: the timing chain tesioner and guides. most important is the tensioner as there is a known design flaw with the original part in earlier models. The oroginal tensioner uses oil pressure to maintain tension on the chain, however, when the engine is off, there is no oil pressure. Initially this isn't an issue, however as the chain begins to stretch the tesnioner must do more. With zero oil pressure, however, it relaxes and allows the slack back into the timing chain.

Updated versins of the tensioner resolve the issue via the use of a ratchet inside the tensioner to maintain tension on the timing chain even with zero oil pressure.

although there is a known issue with the tensioners in the 2.3-16, the larger issue is that your timing chain has stretched and will need to be replaced. procrastinating on this could allow the chain to jump on the cam sprockets thereby altering the timing with disasterous results - namely contact between the piston and the valves.

The cause of all of this is the longer timing chain needed for the twincam. The extra length results in poor lubrication of the timing chain at the exhaust cam sprocket. There IS a DIY fix to deal with this and extend the life of the timing chain. you would have to drill a couple of holes into the #1 exhaust cam bearing cap creating an oil journal wich would spray a jet of oil onto the exhaust cam sprocket. centrifugal force should carry the oil to the chain ensuring that is stays well lubricated.

Of course, you could also change the sprockets and chain to a duples instead of the single, but this is a pretty expensive proposition.
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  #3  
Old 06-04-2003, 11:39 AM
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Thank you for the response

This car has 200kmiles on it. According to the original owner he had the timing chain replaced at 110k miles, so I guess it is due for replacement.
As fas as the tensioner is concern I don't know if it has the latest design one or not, I'll soon find out.
I ordered a timing chain and tensioner from Fastlane, I got the parts yesterday and the tensioner looks like a long piece of guide rail about 12 inches long, this sure doesn't look like a tensioner to me but what do I know I haven't a clue.
I'm going to read the manual hopefully it has good instructions. I will find out after this weekend.
Thank you for your help
Alex
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2003, 03:36 PM
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Posts: 455
hey Alex

I would say there is two ways of doing it .
One ,pop the valve cover off and die grind the chain off, turn the engine over by hand ,and pull it out with the new chain conected and replace the top rail, or...
the way Medcedes wants to with taking everything apart like the manual says, this way is a must if you have to replace
the tensioner rail or any others down there, make sure not to
forget the timing cover gasket part number 102 015 00 80,
or the orange loctite 573 for the seal on porsche engines would
good too
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  #5  
Old 06-04-2003, 04:43 PM
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thanks Davect

Hi Dave,

What the Locktite for?? is it for the timing cover gasket? By the way thanks for the part number there. Looks like I am going to call the dealer and see if they can get me this gasket.

Do you have any trick for installing the new chain? Do I need some type of tool? And can I rent this tool some where?
I noticed that the new chain came from Fastlane is not connected together like a circle this mean I have to connect together, which will require some type of tooling which I have no idea how to get them.
Once again thank you all
Alex
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  #6  
Old 06-04-2003, 05:13 PM
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Alex

The loctite 574 is for metel to metel gasket for high heat and oil
It can be used instead of the gasket, works the best hands down,
For the chain press tool you can get one from
harbor freight tool, or maybe sears , i know performance products
has one in there catlog is like 200 bucks, and they do rent it
for alittle more but you get it back, i guess lol.
good luck
Dave

86 190e 16v
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  #7  
Old 06-07-2003, 01:44 PM
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Posts: 376
Alex,

Do yourself a favor and drain the engine oil. Look for any bits of plastic rails, both in the drain pan and in the oil pan with a flash light. If your chain has been loose for a while, its probably managed to break the plastic chain guides. They get brittle over time.

IF your lucky and you find no pieces, you can proceed with a simple swap of the chain. The long plastic guide they sent you is pressed by the tensioner against the chain.

IF you find pieces............prepare for some serious work. You will have to dismantle the front cover and oil pan to replace all the guides. It is the biggest pain in the arss!!!!!!!!! THE ABSOLUTE worst car I have ever worked on!! If those guides are broken, it means the chain is rubbing against the metal pins that support the guides. When these get cut through by the chain, they could get injested by the oil pump and cause engine failure. Broken chain rail!!!!

I ve been there and replaced mine.

You don`t need a special tool to crimp the new chain. You can simply use a punch and or a ball pin hammer to lock the link.

GOOD LUCK.

Tinker

Last edited by Tinker; 06-07-2003 at 02:00 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-07-2003, 04:44 PM
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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I will be doing the same thing on my 2.3 in the upcoming few weeks. I need to do this because the tensioner blade has one of the edges broken off and it causes the engine to whine constantly, it's not a plesant sound. I'm also thinking about putting in a new chain at the same time, but once I have the rails and all other plastic guids intact, I can do it without pulling off the timing cover.

xp
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2003, 11:12 AM
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They don't make it any harder

Gentlemen,

I finally gather all my confidence and started to dismantle any thing in the way to get to the timing chain cover. What a pain job it is so far.
How do you remove the crank shaft pulley?? Any one has some trick? I don't want to move my TDC if you all know what I mean.
One other question is since my car has 200k miles, and I noticed some blowby and oil is being collected at the air filter housing. I would like to fix this problem while the engine is half off already. Can someone point me some directions how to stop blow-by problem?? Is it rings? a valve seal kit will do the trick??
Thank you in advance.
Alex
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  #10  
Old 06-17-2003, 12:08 PM
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Alex,

With 200k, I would expect some blowby. Do a compression and/or a leak down test to see how your numbers compare to the factory specs.

Some oil in the air filter housing is normal.

You`ll need an air wrench to get that crank shaft nut off.

I remember was a PITA it was removing the bolts that hold down the oil cooler lines that cover the bolts that hold the bracket that supports the power steering pump and covers the front timing cover. Don`t think I am kidding. AND you can not remove the front timing cover without removing the oil pan as the oil pickup tube needs to be removed so the front cover can come out!

I figured the next time I would pull the whole motor and save a few hours of my time.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Tinker
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  #11  
Old 06-17-2003, 08:58 PM
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You are not kidding!

Hey Tinker,

I know what you mean about that bolt where the stupit cooling lines are. I've been putting it off for a few days now and thinking about getting an impact wrench and an air compressor but don't know how to convince my other yet.
I may just putting off the head work for now just try to replace the timing chain, guides and tensioner.
So how did you finally remove the the bolt? As for the crank shaft pulley nut, I may try to use the starter to crack it loose while wedge a socket to the nut against the ground.
Thanks for the response
Alex
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  #12  
Old 06-18-2003, 12:50 AM
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Alex,

You need to remove the bolts that hold the oil cooler lines in place so you can get to that bolt. You just need to move the lines out of the way, not remove them. The oil cooler lines are held down by hex cap bolts. BUT, there is no room to get a wrench in there. I ended up cutting a one inch straight piece off an allen wrench and using that with a small 7mm or 8mm box wrench to turn those bolts an eighth of a turn a time to get them off. It took me quite some time. My wife had never seen me that pissed off. I was LIVID. Once the lines are free, use a swival with a long extension to get to the bolt. All else fails, you could pull the intake off of the car to get at these bolts, but that is also an involved job. BTDT.

You can still test the compression and leak down as it is right now. It would be a shame to tear it most of the way down and have to do it again for the head. That front cover will have to come off again if the head needs rebuilding.

Tinker

P.S. Check out this thread:
Oil pan removal on a 16 V...

Last edited by Tinker; 06-18-2003 at 01:00 AM.
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  #13  
Old 06-18-2003, 11:39 AM
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Posts: 101
They don't make it any harder

Hey Tinker,

Thank you for the tip of getting at the bolt, it sounds very painful but I guess there's no other way right now.
May be I will take your advise to do a compression test just to satisfy my curiosity however sometimes I really don't want to know the truce.
For the leak down test I haven't a clue. How do you do this and for what purpose? Please explain.
There were times that I wanted to get rid of this car and get me a newer M3 or GS400 so bad, but I have pumped in over $2000 in the past 6 months so I kinded got stuck with it.
Right if someone give me $2000 they can have the car as it.... I'm really tired of it.
Hey Tinker maybe you want to tink with it what do ya say??
Alex
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  #14  
Old 06-18-2003, 11:43 AM
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hey Alex

I don't think there is any end to the parts th 16v needs
I have replaced almost everything, I have a new car after I paint it
lol
Hey Im in CT too I would like to take a look at it, I drive a 16v has a everyday driver and my buddy just crashed his 16v and we need more parts
thanks
Dave
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2003, 01:30 AM
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Alex,

I swear most of us 16V owners think alike. I too would love to have a GS400 and was keeping an eye out for good used one. But at $25k+ for a decent one with lower mileage, the price of admission is a bit step. There was another member on this board a year or so back who sold his 16V and traded up to a higher mileage GS400 and loved it. They are great cars, but cetainly don`t handle like a 16V. The 16V`s out there are all getting older and need more and more maintenance. There is something to be said about those bullit proof Japanese products. My problem with the GS400`s is I see one on every corner. The 16V`s are pretty rare.

A compression test is fine. But a leak down test can isolate where the problem is. You need a compressor. Put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder at a set rate, usually around 100 psi. The guage will tell you how much air your losing. Anything over 10% is usually cause for concern. You listen to where the air is escaping, oil cap = worn rings, muffler or intake = valves. Make sure your valves are correctly adjusted.

If I were you I would just take a compression reading and if they are in spec, around 180 psi?, then just fix the current problem and run it or sell it.

For $2k I would consider, but you`re on the other side of the country. Don`t get discouraged. I know I felt like throwing in the towel a few times on mine. But I look at it as a learning experience. And from this board I have learned alot. And as Dave said, I too have replaced and taken apart almost every part on this dang car.

What else can you buy for your money that is as fun to drive and safe?

Tinker
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