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  #1  
Old 09-26-2003, 04:04 PM
mike690003's Avatar
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My 300E's missing at idle, hesitation....SOLVED please read!!

Hell Board

After battling with my 300E and its wierd idle problem for 2 years. I have finally solved the missing,poor idle and hesitation problem. After replacing and or cleaning all these parts(cositng me big $$$$):

-OVP Relay
-Voltage Regulator
-fuel filter
-New Cap
-New Rotor
-New plugs
-New wires
-new vacuum lines
-injector seals
-new radiator
-new thermostat
-new vacuum sensor on top of engine(has 2 vacuum lines coming out of it)
-New fuel sending unit
-Cleaned idle control valve
-new 02 sensor
-fuel mixture was corrected to spec
-cleaned all electrical connections
-new air filter
-replaced #5 and #6 injector
-cleaned throttle plate
-new aux fan
-spent lots of $$$ on Techron
-Spent lots of $$$ on diagnostics


The problem was my FUEL INJECTORS!!!

My car now starts up right away, idles great, and has no hesitation. It also accelerates quicker. Well after having having all the diagnostic shops telling me what my "problem" was, and costing me $$$( expensive guesses), my last resort were the injectors. It turns uut that those were my problem makers. Well If anyone is experiencing the problems I had with my car, try the injectors. It cost me $20.50 for each injector and the seals were anout $.35 a piece. Replacing the 6 injectors took me about 2 hours.

Because my car is running so well now, I decided to give here a reward, I had keyless entry installed on her.

Thanks a lot guys!!
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1987 mercedes 300E
1995 e320 conversion(hated the 300e grill)
HID/Xenon (D2S)
Keyless Entry
Monochromatic Paint (Custom Blue)
Smoked Tails
Flat Badged (front)
Debadged (rear)
custom "carbon fiber" console
18 inch HP EVO rims
Sold! Now I drive a Monte Carlo SS
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../352975_67.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../748335_24.jpg
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2003, 04:24 PM
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Posts: 459
I vaguely remember reading that you had to do something to the injectors before you install them. Something like check the pop-off point of the injector (like they test diesel injectors), and if you don't, the car won't run right? Did you do something like this, or did you just install them out of the box? Any special tools necessary?

Thanks

GregS
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2003, 05:40 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 93
I am also considering replacing my injectors and have the same question; Do the new injectors need to be pressurized/charged prior to install? I have seen posts with differing opinions and would welcome opinions from the techs here.

EJC
88 300TE
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  #4  
Old 09-26-2003, 05:50 PM
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Location: Wilmington, NC
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Glad to hear you fixed this problem.

Would you mind describing the symptoms in detail, as I am considering replacing my injectors.

Thanks, Mike
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-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

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1992 400E
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2003, 06:48 PM
mike690003's Avatar
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Well, all I did was inasall them right out of the box. The car did run rough for about 30 seconds after I had installed the new injectors. I guess the system was pressurizing itself in that time. Well I have a smooth idle now, and I have good throttle response, so I guess the injectors didn't need anything "special" done to them.

As far as my symptoms: Search this site under all the topics that I have posted. There are numerous posts that deal with my hesitation and missing problems.
__________________
1987 mercedes 300E
1995 e320 conversion(hated the 300e grill)
HID/Xenon (D2S)
Keyless Entry
Monochromatic Paint (Custom Blue)
Smoked Tails
Flat Badged (front)
Debadged (rear)
custom "carbon fiber" console
18 inch HP EVO rims
Sold! Now I drive a Monte Carlo SS
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../352975_67.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../748335_24.jpg
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2003, 09:23 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: France
Posts: 487
Re: My 300E's missing at idle, hesitation....SOLVED please read!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mike690003
[B]Hell Board

After battling with my 300E and its wierd idle problem for 2 years. I have finally solved the missing,poor idle and hesitation problem. After replacing and or cleaning all these parts(cositng me big $$$$):

-The problem was my FUEL INJECTORS!!!


I am also battling since a few years with my 260E,1988, unstable idle and sometimes stall while running .

Could you tell me whether you have ever used some injector cleaner in the fuel ?
I did it twice and I suspect this to the cause

Last edited by cc260E; 09-29-2003 at 01:51 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2003, 03:18 AM
87-300E_in_NC's Avatar
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Location: outside of Raleigh, NC
Posts: 203
Hesitation

Thanks for sharing your valuable find on your problems Mike! My 300E with the 2.6 engine is having the same problem, wiht severe hesitation during and after warm-up. Throttle response has been getting less and less.

Here's my scenrio: I bought the 300E with a blown head gasket, so I had the head rebuilt, cranked up and ran fine. While on my first drive, the fuel gauge was faulty and it ran out of gas, but the fuel pumps pulled rust from the tank and it traveled to the fuel distributor. I cleaned it out, checked for vacum leaks (fixing a few along the way) and now the engine cranks up fine, idles while warming up, and the idles down and dies eventually after obtaining operating temp.

No throttle response at this time, and as I stated that has been progressively worse....now I am wondering if my injectors are clogged with rust, to the point of operation while cold (with cold start valve) and then not operating with warm engine.

I have re-soldered the fuel pump relay, checked throttle position sensor (tps) and took a look at my airflow potentiometer (which has scratches on one surface). This part is hard to locate used, so I can determine if it would make any difference in performance.

Thanks to everyone and their posts on this board, as it has been helpful to determine my engine hesitation problems. Many of the visitors do view this board without joining......me being one of them for about a month or so, but since I'm a 300E owner now, I figured that I should share my experience and knowledge as well. I am considering on starting a 300E car club for the Raleigh-Durham area of North Carolina (and the rest of the state as well).

Thanks again, and I'll be testing and cleaning injectors!

87-300E_in_NC

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  #8  
Old 12-20-2003, 10:23 AM
Bud
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How many miles did you have on the old injectors. BTW, fantastic car. I should have done some of that to mine. Maybe I still should since I can't seem to find a new car that satisfies me.

BTW, my '91 300E has only 63K on the clock and looks and drives like new. I guess I have to ask myself if I'd rather have a like-new 300E or give it up along with more than $40K for a new car.
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2003, 10:38 AM
Moderator
 
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Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 6,844
Fixin the problem. Its like a game show. If you are really into it there is no finer experience.

You ought to try it where there is more than luck involved. Try it where your testing becomes the challenge. Try it where a grocery bag of failures mean no success. Try it where success comes only at the end of a perfect diagnosis. Who needs money when it happens.
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Continental Imports
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2003, 03:12 PM
87-300E_in_NC's Avatar
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Bud, to answer your question of how many miles do I have on the old injectors....212,000 ....and, now that I have had time to think it over very well, I pulled a few plugs (right after it died on me, on the side of a country road at 2am!) the plugs looked red, like rust....so that means that the rust did get to the injectors.

Needless to say, I went hunting (after sleeping in my car, since the 24hr tow wanted $150) and got my car to the house. I pulled the fuel tank, cleaned it well with rocks and Naval Jelly at the car wash with high pressure hot water. I let it air dry, replaced it, replaced the fuel filter and gas line from the tank (which was dry-rotten) and it seemed to make a difference until it warmed up.

Once it warmed up, there was no throttle response at all, and it would just die out, and not crank back. So, I went hunting again....pulled the intake and fuel system to look for cracks in the rubber housing (under the air intake valve). Found a few dry-rotten places, cleaned like new, and sprayed Epoxy paint to seal and make a temp. fix, to determine if that was a problem, but it was not.

I looked at all the obvious things without running down the entire fuel delivery system. The fuek distributor had a bit of rust sediment in it, so I cleaned it and re-installed it.....no change in throttle response. My testing equipment has been limited....voltmeter, digital voltmeter and a cheap book from the U.K. that claimed it would be the best book for me to purchase.....which was incorrect information! The book is titled "Mercedes W124 1985 to 1995".

Maybe you guys could tell me your opinion of the "Mercedes Bible".........I appreciate your replies, and this board!

I'll keep you posted as to my injector cleaning.
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  #11  
Old 12-20-2003, 04:12 PM
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Posts: 580
87-300E_in_NC:
Welcome to the board, I am in Clayton, NC (14 miles East of Raleigh).

You have arrived to the best and most helpful Mercedes board in the internet (and with the best technicians too).


May be we can meet and tackle some of this stuff together.

You have mail.
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2003, 06:06 PM
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Location: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Fixin the problem. Its like a game show. If you are really into it there is no finer experience.
Steve,

So your message here is: There are many reasons for a car to run poorly. Such things as:

-OVP Relay
-Voltage Regulator
-fuel filter
-Cap
-Rotor
-plugs
-wires
-vacuum lines
-injector seals
-thermostat
-vacuum sensor on top of engine(has 2 vacuum lines coming out of it)
-idle control valve
-02 sensor
-fuel mixture
-electrical connections
-air filter
-etc, etc ....

The "game show" part of your comment is in the exclamation of the solution? That the real test (true technician) is to find the problem quickly and effectively without needless parts replacements?

Got it! I hear you. A lot of the solutions on this board to similiar problems are offered sometimes as universal cure-alls. Unfortuneately, the parts list above could all be contributors to poor running.

I think it was Larry Bible who put it best: Test the basics first. It doesn't matter what you might think its wrong.

Haasman
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  #13  
Old 12-20-2003, 06:06 PM
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Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
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I'm sitting here wondering about the "rust" theory. Sounds like you need to hook up with Cap'n and the trials/tribulations of his 300E. I want to think the Bosch system on your car is probably doing what it is designed to do, you just haven't put your finger on what is causing it yet. Have you tested the various sensors, etc.. that this car has? How far in the fuel distributor did you look? I would not advise looking too far into it. Cap'n showed me what is in one and it ain't pretty for the diy'er.

This is the first time I have ever heard the theory that because the plugs are red there is rust in the fuel system - hmmmmmm (but keep in mind I mostly mess with the diesels) - I'm going to have to think about that one for awhile. Are you sure it ain't running lean? Can you get a duty cycle reading? If it is on the higher side of 50% then it is lean and can cause you some runnability problems.

welcome aboard
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  #14  
Old 12-20-2003, 09:52 PM
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Location: outside of Raleigh, NC
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Exclamation Rust for sure engatwork

Hi engatwork and pesuazo, haasman and all -

There was so much rust in the tank that it clogged the fuel filter......incedible to say the least! Since the tank is galvanized and since the gas has water in it, the possibility of rust being an issue is present in these cars, and others as well (gasoline that is)....and boy it sure was bad, believe me. My brother witnessed it, as I sat in the trunk to remove the tank, and then draining the remaining sediment into a 5 gallon bucket. I had to clean out both fuel pumps also. Replaced the filter and purged the line before reattaching it to the fuel distributor.

When I get another digital camera, I'll post various photos of my 300E with details of what I went through buying it with a blown head gasket. I thought I would get a deal on it, but that was not factoring in my time and parts, not to mention the amount of frustration that it can become.....being a former full time mechanic, I was able to maintain and overcome many issues with the car so far, without any books or technical guidance and/or data.

When I removed the head, there was carbon build-up, which I believe the gasoline of choice was regular unleaded, instead of my choice of premium unleaded. When I took the head to the machine shop for a total rebuild, I figured that it would be a good reliable car for me, so I waited for the head, and after assembly I cranked it, ran it for almost 25 minutes of total run time, and the engine stops. Upon initial investigation, the rotor had struck the dist. cap and cracked the cap...so , I replaced the cap (from Autozone....one mistake I won't make again since it was not Bosch, but I had no choice at the time). The engine would not crank, trying to start it in the dark, had my brother crank over the engine and discovered that only #1 and #2 spark plug wires were actually firing, and then that's when I removed the valve cover. There are no words that I can use (nicely) to describe what I encountered next. The front half of the camshaft was rotating, and the back half was not. The cam had cracked! After my $552.16 at the machine shop for a total head rebuild, I was disappointed that I could not drive the car.

I removed the head and discovered the reason why I could not initially locate the Camshaft Timing mark that should have been on the rocker assembly, in the front. It's because the rocker arm assembly was installed in reverse....by mistake at the machine shop. So, I waited until the machine shop located another head for rebuild, with cam and rockers. This is what I went through before I learned that the fuel guage was stuck at half a tank, and ran out of gas, pulling all the rust into the fuel system....including the rust color spark plugs (Bosch, with less than 25 minutes of run time on them. The car had been running just fine, like a well oiled Singer sewing machine at Sears.

So, now I'm at the point of cleaning (soaking) the fuel injectors and hope that will clear up the situation. I realize that other factors could be causing severe hesitation, and I will keep that in mind. By the way, that Autozone dist cap is not molded exactly the same...it does not have the same molding in the middle, where the rotor contact is made, thus could be a breeding ground for shorting inside the cap itself, to the head. The engine had throttle response, but has gradually diminished. It's too cold at the moment for me to pull the injectors, so I may try it tomorrow, outside wearing cover-alls and gloves!

Thanks everyone for the great welcome to this board. I really appreciate that. I'll be glad to help anyone here as well. Thanks also Steve, for your inspiration...lol...truly though, you are right.....it's like a game show, and I'm dealing with Bob Barker instead of the girls that meet you when you win!

The personal satisfaction of making any accomplishment on my 300E is greater to me now that I own it, instead of working on others that I have in the past, even though I had personal satisfaction on those Mercedes and other fine automobiles, such as my old '69 Dodge Charger with a 440/auto., or the 560 that I ued to service and maintain.

Being a Mercedes owner, now I feel like I'm climbing a mountain that will have a great view when I'm at the top!...and I may even find gold when I get there! LOL!

Thanks again to all on this board
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2003, 10:20 PM
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87-300E_in_NC

Great description and story. I can definitely relate. The 190e was almost a junk yard dog. I wasn't convinced that I could bring it back.

There is a great feeling of satisfaction working on these cars. It is a process to sleuth out what is the cause for the this or that, figuring out whether one is receiving good advice, and finally going for it and repairing.

Welcome to the forum!

Haasman
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