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  #1  
Old 08-21-2000, 10:48 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10

I'm trying to find out what micro controller architecture is used on a Bosh KE Fuel Injection Control Unit from a 1987 190E Mercedes Benz. I need to test the micro controller and I can do it on some friend's equipment but he needs to know what Intel architecture the chip is based on.

The Bosh # is 0 280 800 204, the MB # is 005 545 55 32. The chip has the following label on it:

Siemens
B57106
Intel '81
8606

Does anybody happens to know ?? or where I can find info about this ??. It might be an Intel 8051 architecture but I'm not sure.

If anybody is wondering why I need this info, well I suspect the KE ECU is going south after many test I've done to the whole system ( sensors, actuators, wiring ). I'm getting an intermitent condition from the fuel system and everything points to the ECU.

Since I have a friend with the proper test equipment for micro controllers ( nothing to do with automotive equipment ) he told me he could check it up for me. I don't know the exact details but if I remember correctly it was a test named ICE or something like that.

I know it would be easier to replace the unit, but I'm just trying to save the unit and learn in the process.

I know this ECU uses some old Intel architecture, I'm just trying to find out which one. For example, BMW's E30 line uses the 8052 architecture. The 190E MB uses an older and simpler one since the KE system has nothing to do with the spark control.

Thanks,
Octavio.


------------------
-----------------------
87 Euro 190E 2.5-16
91 SportEvo E30 M3
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  #2  
Old 08-22-2000, 02:05 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 6,844
Do you know exactly what the controller is doing wrong? If not, knowing how it works internally is about useless. The one thing about experience that can't be replaced with book knowledge is the ability to diagnose by understanding whats missing; instead of trying to add up all the parts.

You can verify the function of all the components and never find whats wrong with the system.

The KE controller does two things (ONLY TWO THINGS). It controls the current to the EHA and controls the Idle valve for idle speed control. Which of these two things is it doing wrong? AND of course as it is doing this thing what does the electric siganture look like? If you don't know this EXACTLY then you are on a fishing expedition not a car repair expedition.

------------------
Steve Brotherton
Owner 24 bay BSC
Bosch Master, ASE master L1
26 years MB technician
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  #3  
Old 08-22-2000, 04:03 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10
Steve,

Thanks for pointing that out, although I already knew that it controls the EHA on the Fuel Distributor and the idle valve only.

I didn't want to explain all the details of what I've tested because I didn't want to bother everyone to death, but I should have done it to makes things more clear. I apologize for that.

To make the story short, I've followed the procedures on the MB 201 service manuals to check the different signals ( current variations ) that goes to the EHA on certain conditions ( RPMs, temp, O2 signal, etc ) and the MB diagrams end up with the "Replace Control Unit" box after some of the test.

Now, as I said before, since I have a friend with generic electronic test equipment, he offered me to test the unit. I know he doesn't have the internal schematics of the unit ( nobody does except Bosh ) and he won't be able to perform a complete test, but he offered me to test the micro controller which is the brain of box. He can only do that if he know what's the architecture which is what I'm trying to find out.

Maybe someone in the performance chip business knows as they have to modify some of the values of the fuel/advance maps of their chips, and to do that, you usually have to know the processor architecture to understand how the program runs on the box and how the values on the maps are used to signal the actuators, EHA, injectors, idle valve, coils, etc, etc. At least, the good tuners have to know this.

As I said, I know the correct procedure would be replace the unit, as the MB manual says, but since the car belongs to a friend, I was trying to save him some money and also learn something about electronic and software that runs on the box.

I whish I could find the diagrams of the unit, I know Bosh doesn't give away this, but it would very useful. Anyway it's an old, old technology, so there isn't any competitive advantage that Bosh should be afraid of giving out.

Sorry if my previous post caused any confusion.

Thanks again,
Octavio.

------------------
-----------------------
87 Euro 190E 2.5-16
91 SportEvo E30 M3
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2000, 05:20 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 6,844
Octavio,

You say that you wish to know the strategy for control of "actuators, EHA, injectors, idle valve, coil etc, etc.

One of us has a big misunderstanding. I thought we were talking KE. There is ONLY EHA and IDLE VALVE control in that controller, no coils, no injectors, no actuators, just EHA current. Tell me whats wrong with your EHA current? It uses pulse width controled current flow to the idle valve. What is its current? At idle? w/AC? off idle? In gear?

I don't want to be hard but you are asking technical questions beyond my knowledge and beyond the need of a diagnosis. The questions I ask are those I see as necessary to decide whether the controller is the problem (a very rare occurance).

------------------
Steve Brotherton
Owner 24 bay BSC
Bosch Master, ASE master L1
26 years MB technician
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2000, 09:39 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10
Steve,

I mentioned "actuators, EHA, injectors, idle valve, coil" just as an example related to a modern ECU system like Motronic and its relations to the maps, just that. I know the KE is a CFI that just uses electronics for fine tuning through the EHA and IV. Sorry about the confusion.

The problem I'm getting is that sometimes the EHA doesn't receives the proper signal. e.g. -60mA for fuel cut, varying while in closed loop, etc. It looks like the wiring was damaged somewhere, but it was replaced and re-checked again after that. Sometimes the fuel cut ( ~ -60mA ) engages for no apparent reason and without the proper conditions ( > 1500 RPMs, TPS at idle and < rev limit ). In summary, sometimes I get signals without the proper conditions and sometimes the wrong signals with the right conditions.

As I said, everything points to the ECU doing weird stuff.

Octavio.
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2000, 10:29 PM
mattsuzie
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Sorry for the interuption, but this electro magno physico whatevero babble is getting real exciting, Continue on
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2000, 10:37 PM
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Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Suwanee, GA, USA
Posts: 4,712
One very important parameter of fuel shut-off is the speed. It is picked up at the back of the speedo with a hall sensor. I have seen a handfull of them faulty. I have also seen barometric pressure sensors faulty do weird things.

------------------
Benzmac:
Donnie Drummonds
1991 GMC Syclone
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
SERVICE MANAGER FOR 14 BAY FACILITY
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 8 YRS
PARTNER IN MERCEDESSHOP.COM
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