I think that certain members of this forum are really taking the whole religious debate to far. I suggest to those that are of the opinion that all muslims are evil should maybe go and do some research, go get a clue and then come back to the forum and have an informed and intelligent discussion. I must say that we as Americans aren't really thought of to highly outside of the US. I wonder why?

So are those "moderates" really moderates then or just wolves in sheep clothing?

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Meaning what? That after research they would come to the same conclusion as you? Having been born outside the US and lived among them for a long while, I did come to the conclusion, based on my observations that the true moderates are few and far between.

Because we pull the same stunts as the rest of the world but on a larger scale? I have seen other countries that condemn the USA for some of the stunts we pull. OTOH, it is ok when they themselves do it. We are not perfect and neither is anyone. However, because we are the biggest kid on the block, we also get a lot of notice when we do it. When the little kid does it, it makes a smaller splash.

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I think you missed the point.

OK. I'll bite. What is your point then?

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So called moderates are wolves in sheep's clothing everywhere on earth, Islam doesn't hold a monopoly to it, evil is being commited under different guise throughout the world and with approval.

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True. True. I agree with you that islam has no monopoly on wolves in sheep's clothing. However, your statement was that the fanatics ruled the moderates and kept them quiet while they perverted the religion. My question is, how do you know it is that way and not that the few fanatics went the way they did with tacit support from the masses? In my book, the terrorist isn't only the guy with the AK47 and bomb vest. It is the guy who built it. It is the guy who supplied the terrorist. It is the guy that gave money to the organization.

It is like if I bought you a car and gun to rob a bank. Yes, you were the robber but I had a hand in the commission of the crime. I cannot say I am innocent, can I?

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I am sure while you were living abroad that not every single muslim was evil or a terrorist. That is my point. When I was young I was attacked by a group of African American teens, I was middle school age. The ironic part was that when the white security guard I was yelling for saw what was going on he just kept walking. The person who saved my butt was a African American woman, she ran these guys off. After that experince if I thought how some forum members apparently think I would dislike African American men, I would aslo dislike white security guards, but I would like African American women. It is late and I have to work in the A.M. so good night.

If the car used was manufactured here in the US, because then we could say the dealer, the truck driver who delivered the dealership the car, the assembly person, the manufacturer, all of the raw materials supplier's and all of the others involved in the process of making that car ultimately available to the bank robber are shareholders of liability. Now I am really going to bed!

The point is fear and the perception of not belonging to the group, just as in same way, the world patriotism is misused in US, its either you are with us or you aren't, if one talks of social welfare, then he or she is deemed to be a commie pinko. Same way, general fear of opposing fanatics, being considered to be out of circle keeps Muslim moderates in check.

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Not every single one. As I said, barrel of apples. A few good, a few bad and the others good on the outside but suspect in the core.

Been jerked around by Caucasians before too. I don't blame every one. If 3 out of 5 people with blue hats hit me, you bet if you wear a blue hat, I will be rather cautious.

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Well, if they all gave the car to the robber knowing what he was doing with it, I agree with you. IOW, if you loan Joe you gun thinking he was hunting with it and he shot me, I don't blame you. However, Joe told you he needed to borrow your gun to shoot somebody and you loaned it to him, you too are responsible for the commission of the crime.

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That is one theory. However it doesn't answer the question. How do you know that is the case? How do you know that the "moderates" are not actually wanting to covertly support what the fanatics are doing? Think of Lebanon. When they got tore apart by Isreal. Jihad Construction came around to help them repair the houses, etc, etc. It was to buy them over. Where do you think Jihad Construction got it's money from?

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I agree, its in the same way people vote for someone who then goes on to invade a country and tear it apart, the majority moderates voted and approved. They went with the tide, all of us humans do, we love to be sheep and be led by the so called Shepherd.

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I beg to differ.
India is a country where people routinely, and horribly, maim their children so they can be better beggars, where families live on sidewalks, where people don't have enough money to buy firewood so the dead are thrown into the Ganges half burnt, where people still practice female infanticide because girls are a liability to the family (obliged to give huge dowry when they get married), where the cast system is still alive and well, etc, etc.
An interesting movie to watch is Shocking Asia, a German documentary (not a recent production, however time is moving in a snail's pace in a few Asian countries).

"While India's growth makes it an economic and political player to watch in the next decades, the country remains desperately poor. Almost a quarter of India's 1.1 billion people live on less than $1 a day; 700 million more live on less than $2 a day.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/08/opinion/edhughes.php"

"According to the 1996 Human Development Report, 53 per cent of Indian children under five were underweight. 67 per cent of Indian births were unattended by health personnel. 64 per cent of Indian women were illiterate. Average these to get our Capability Poverty Measure (CPM): 61.5. That made us 89th among 101 developing countries the HDR ranked that year by their CPM."

"Income Levels and Poverty:

With over a quarter of the world's poor concentrated in India, poverty is the government's biggest priority.
Classified as a "low income" country by the World Bank with a GNI (gross national income) of $450.
Great inequality in the distribution of wealth: the richest tenth of households hold 33% of wealth, while the poorest tenth only hold 3%
29% of the population lives below the poverty line; 70% of these people reside in rural areas
86% of the population lives under $2 per day; 44% lives under $1 per day
25% of the population does not have enough money to eat adequately"

"Trafficking in persons:
current situation: India is a source, destination, and transit country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of forced or bonded labor and commercial sexual exploitation; the large population of men, women, and children - numbering in the millions - in debt bondage face involuntary servitude in brick kilns, rice mills, and embroidery factories, while some children endure involuntary servitude as domestic servants; internal trafficking of women and girls for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced marriage also occurs; the government estimates that 90 percent of India's sex trafficking is internal; India is also a destination for women and girls from Nepal and Bangladesh trafficked for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation; boys from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are trafficked through India to the Gulf states for involuntary servitude as child camel jockeys"
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html

"Focus (1): India

As John-Thor Dahlburg points out, "in rural India, the centuries-old practice of female infanticide can still be considered a wise course of action." (Dahlburg, "Where killing baby girls 'is no big sin'," The Los Angeles Times [in The Toronto Star, February 28, 1994.]) According to census statistics, "From 972 females for every 1,000 males in 1901 ... the gender imbalance has tilted to 929 females per 1,000 males. ... In the nearly 300 poor hamlets of the Usilampatti area of Tamil Nadu [state], as many as 196 girls died under suspicious circumstances [in 1993] ... Some were fed dry, unhulled rice that punctured their windpipes, or were made to swallow poisonous powdered fertilizer. Others were smothered with a wet towel, strangled or allowed to starve to death."
"A study of Tamil Nadu by the Community Service Guild of Madras similarly found that "female infanticide is rampant" in the state, though only among Hindu (rather than Moslem or Christian) families. "Of the 1,250 families covered by the study, 740 had only one girl child and 249 agreed directly that they had done away with the unwanted girl child. More than 213 of the families had more than one male child whereas half the respondents had only one daughter." (Malavika Karlekar, "The girl child in India: does she have any rights?," Canadian Woman Studies, March 1995.) "
http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

So you are either purposely misrepresent the facts to protect the image of India (not the first time somebody from a third world country would do that even if you live in the US; if you were born in America you would have little reason to distort the truth unless India is more important to you than the US) or sadly misinformed.
Which one?

Regarding the religion issue, I wonder if the Indian Parliament would allow Christians to worship in the Indian House of Commons?


Alex