Torture - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Medmech · #91 10-22-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So is beheading of captives but it happens. GC crap was written a long time ago in a very different situation. The captives are fighting with tomorrow's tactics while we are fighting with yesterday' tactics.

Stupid is Stupid does.

Mistress · #92 10-22-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

Anyone that has been through SERE had a chance to go through water boarding, it can be the longest 5-10 seconds of your life, people trained to resist water boarding can make it 30 seconds, which used to be a requirement from what I gather this is not longer a requirement. With that said almost all SF personal Air Force pilots and some Soldiers go through the SERE training and go through all of the allowed interrogation techniques so why should it be illegal to put people through the same punishment we subject our own soldiers to?

. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.
"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

Can you explain what Chinese water torture is?

Botnst · #93 10-22-2007, 03:50 PM

No, but French water torture involves soap.

tankdriver · #94 10-22-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Rules? In a knife fight?

Morality transcends rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How about "Because it puts us at a severe disadvantage."? Or how about "Because we would be stupid to insist that they play by our rules instead of us playing by the rules of the game."? Some card games have rules that vary based on where you are playing. Are you telling me you play by the rules of the game at that place or do you play by the rules of the casino you usually go to?

I don't insist they play by our rules. I don't get to decide that. We do get to decide how we act. Or have the illusion of that choice anyway.

aklim · #95 10-22-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Morality transcends rules.

I don't insist they play by our rules. I don't get to decide that. We do get to decide how we act. Or have the illusion of that choice anyway.

Well, I suppose if we go by that, would it matter who judges us later on? I mean, morality is only good if you are alive. Would morality matter to the dead? I think not.

And so far, we have decided poorly. So, which is better? A live immoral person or a dead moral person. I don't know about you but I take living if I were offered the choice.

Medmech · #96 10-22-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress

Can you explain what Chinese water torture is?

similar concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture

Medmech · #97 10-22-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

No, but French water torture involves soap.

hehe

peragro · #98 10-23-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

No, but French water torture involves soap.

...and a dirty Frenchman, oui? But I am redundant...

Who is tortured? The Frenchman or the washer, or both?

cmac2012 · #99 10-23-2007, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

1. Clarify, please.

2. Well golly-gee, Wally, if they can't fight fairly and according to the rules, getting all f**king goody-two-shoes about the interrogation of the murdering bastards in GTMO seems self-defeating.

1. The Germans that Roosevelt had summarily executed were plain clothes agents in our nation, on our shores. Far, far different than us going to Afghanistan and fighting and capturing a bunch of fools who were not part of an army, rather just farmers or similar ilk doing what they thought was defending their country.

2. Rules that we made w/o consulting them. Perhaps someone in their country signed onto it at one time or another but face it, these are zones in the gray area of governance. And with the poverty of these characters, expecting them to all have matching uniforms is unrealistic.

Besides, Batperson and Robin, you may recall our founding fathers didn't play by those rules all the time either cause to do so would have resulted in their certain slaughter by the vastly superior British forces and their aim was something apart from committing a fool's suicide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

3. Oh wait, I got now.

Clarify, please.

cmac2012 · #**100** 10-23-2007, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I see. Instead of no leads? Even if you get intel thru other means, you still have to chase it down.

Screw the PR loss. Why should we care about it? The other side certainly doesn't and are still going strong.

The people I've listened to who seem to actually know a thing or two about this claim that you get higher quality leads w/o torture, leading to better overall results.

Dude, we lost very few people in post WW2 G and J and good PR was part of that. After 9/11, people in Iran held moments of silence at soccer games and the like. I propose building on that rather than trashing it, as Cheney is chomping at the bit to do.

People are human, it may surprise you to learn.

cmac2012 · #**101** 10-23-2007, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

WE DON'T TORTURE..........legal combatants. The rest? Who cares? useful information can be gained by compliant techniques.

Gitmo does not torture, nor do US forces. Intelligence gathering agencies are in charge of that, so if you think "Pvt Joe Snuffy" is out there with the cattle prod to the genitals, you have been watching too many bad movies.

FWIW, "Fresh Air" on NPR is about as reliable source as Jerry Springer, just packaged better. Terry Gross needs to stay focused on interviewing musicians....

OK boy wonder, see if you can summon two ounces of intellectual curiosity and listen to the GDed episode. The guy she interviewed is who is in question, not Teri Gross. The guy is no lightweigt, but I suspect you'll never know that because Hannity is damn sure not going to have him on his show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

Abu gharib was NOT torture.............please......

Dude, I'm going to get you and ten of your buddies and pull an Abu Gharib on ya'all for about a month and then we'll see if your fondest ambition at that point is bashing my skull in.

Get a clue . . . .

cmac2012 · #**102** 10-23-2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

Word I've been hearing is that he's confessing to so much stuff as to be unrealistic. Could be at some point, the breaking becomes so complete that all you want it for the pain to stop. Hence, 'oh hell yes, I did this, that, and a whole buncha other stuff. Turn on that tape recorder, ya'all.'

Mohammed Sheikh Khalid has now, voluntarily and of his own free will, admitted he masterminded every significant event from the Norman Invasion through the bubonic plague, fall of Constantinople, and Great Fire of London, to the Battle of Little Big Horn, assassination of JFK and the Oklahoma bombing.

Or he might as well have. The extraordinarily comprehensive list of terrorist outrages for which he claims responsibility would be beyond the capacity of any but the most brilliant and inspired mortal; Khalid, I fear, is a more run of the mill thug.

But in truth, we have absolutely no idea what, if anything, he has confessed at all. The BBC brazenly reported all of yesterday that while Khalid did allege he had been tortured during his four years of secret detention by the CIA in various locations around the globe, he is now freely confessing under no duress and does not retract any of his confession.

Did Khalid really do all of this? Two facts must be considered. He has been through years of vicious torture and of solitary confinement. If the experience of others who survived extraordinary rendition is typical, he has been kept in total isolation, in darkness, beaten, cut, suffocated and drowned, suffered white noise and sensory deprivation. He will have been moved around, often not even knowing which country he is in. One good contact has told me that the CIA gave the Uzbek torturers their turn with him. I do not know that for certain, but who can contradict me?

After years of this, a person can be so psychologically damaged that they believe the narrative of their torturers to be the truth. It is perfectly possible that he now in fact believes he did all that stuff on the list, when he did not.

Alternatively, he may have decided to exaggerate his own role and achievements for the personal glory it brings. We can get the appalling situation where both the sides which benefit from and wish to promote the War on Terror - Al Qaida and the CIA - indulge in what becomes a grim mutual cooperation in exaggeration as each seeks to glorify their role. Thus do those on both sides who actually desire a "Clash of Civilisations", promote one.

From: http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/1696

t walgamuth · #**103** 10-23-2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

...and a dirty Frenchman, oui? But I am redundant...

Who is tortured? The Frenchman or the washer, or both?

I am pretty sure it is a joke at the expense of the French.....insinuating that they don't like taking baths much, which I believe is true for Europeans in general. Well. at least that they don't value bathing strictly every day as we tend to do.

Tom W

Gurkha · #**104** 10-23-2007, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I am pretty sure it is a joke at the expense of the French.....insinuating that they don't like taking baths much, which I believe is true for Europeans in general. Well. at least that they don't value bathing strictly every day as we tend to do.

Tom W

Actually bathing is luxury to people from desert regions where water is scarce, just not Europeans who probably did it due to the cold weather Also some religions which shall remain un-named observe no bath days and that too in middle of summer. Trust me, going near them in humid and muggy NYC summer was no fun. I would prefer to be skunked instead.

Botnst · #**105** 10-23-2007, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

1. The Germans that Roosevelt had summarily executed were plain clothes agents in our nation, on our shores. Far, far different than us going to Afghanistan and fighting and capturing a bunch of fools who were not part of an army, rather just farmers or similar ilk doing what they thought was defending their country.

2. Rules that we made w/o consulting them. Perhaps someone in their country signed onto it at one time or another but face it, these are zones in the gray area of governance. And with the poverty of these characters, expecting them to all have matching uniforms is unrealistic.

Besides, Batperson and Robin, you may recall our founding fathers didn't play by those rules all the time either cause to do so would have resulted in their certain slaughter by the vastly superior British forces and their aim was something apart from committing a fool's suicide.

Clarify, please.

You want us to abide by rules that don't work and want us to excuse the enemy for not abiding by those rules. This is what we call a "double standard", the result of which is a higher likelihood of dead American soldiers. You're okay with that?

The Geneva Conventions did not exist in 1776.

B

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