Drill ANWAR? - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dxpoo · #76 04-20-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

OK. So what is? Goodwill towards their fellow man? What makes you go to work? Your wanting to serve your fellow man?

As someone leaving for the Peace Corps in January, with plans for a career in humanitarian aid...

Yes, that's EXACTLY why I get up and go to work in the morning.

As for American car companies. It's been mentioned before, they spent their R&D money on lobbyist to legally solidify their cartel. Tucker tried to make a better car once... How did they "compete" with him?

aklim · #77 04-20-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

As someone leaving for the Peace Corps in January, with plans for a career in humanitarian aid...

Yes, that's EXACTLY why I get up and go to work in the morning.

Perhaps in your case but I think that isn't the case for most people.

dxpoo · #78 04-20-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Perhaps in your case but I think that isn't the case for most people.

My point was, don't make the mistake of automatically attributing your ideals to everyone around you.

aklim · #79 04-20-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

My point was, don't make the mistake of automatically attributing your ideals to everyone around you.

And my point is that if most everyone I see wears a blue hat, it would be a safe bet that you can say "people wear blue hats" and be right most of the time.

Botnst · #80 04-20-2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

As someone leaving for the Peace Corps in January, with plans for a career in humanitarian aid...

Yes, that's EXACTLY why I get up and go to work in the morning.

As for American car companies. It's been mentioned before, they spent their R&D money on lobbyist to legally solidify their cartel. Tucker tried to make a better car once... How did they "compete" with him?

Thank you for your service -- it's a good thing you're about to do. It also puts you into an extremely tight old-boy network. I've seen it work.

How many people are motivated by humanitarian interests to do what they do on a daily basis?

B

tankdriver · #81 04-20-2008, 10:17 AM

I provided a list already of other motivations besides profit. Ever heard the old engineer adage; an engineer looks at a glass half full and says it's twice as big as it needs to be? Whether he can make money on the smaller glass is nowhere in there. I was watching a home improvement show, and they had this little project for a cabinet accessory so tupperware stacks more efficiently. The guy was fed up with his tupperware not stacking or losing the lids. He didn't sell the plans, he showed how to build it. It's not an earth shattering innovation, but he made it because he hated what he had. Not because of profit.
People make new things for alot of reasons.

Botnst · #82 04-20-2008, 10:34 AM

Profit is the prime motivator of all cultures and societies that have evolved past the barter system.

To me, profit is neither good nor bad. It's a part of all transactions.

Even Jesus was okay with that.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26

B

Botnst · #83 04-20-2008, 10:45 AM

FYI, there was a very large gas find in North Louisiana announced recently. http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/546054.html
http://www.rigzone.com/NEWS/article.asp?a_id=59737

----------
And a new one off shore.

New Field Discoveries in Chandeleur Sound,

Offshore Louisiana

Chacko J. John, Bobby L. Jones, Brian J. Harder, Reed J. Bourgeois, and M. Byron Miller Louisiana Geological Survey, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA

Phillips Petroleum Company discovered the first oil and gas field in the Chandeleur Sound Area, offshore St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana. There have been twenty-two subsequent discoveries. Since the last field discovery in 1994 renewed activity has resulted in four new field discoveries during 2002, three during the first half of 2003 and restored production in two older fields. New discoveries are located in Chandeleur Sound Blocks 26, 31, 67, 68, Chandeleur Sound Addition Blocks 27, 51, and Chandeleur Sound West Block 28. A total of 29 oil and gas fields have been discovered as of June 30, 2003. Typical representative fields are Blocks 58, 71, the Stuards Bluff field and East Stuards Bluff field. These are discussed in detail.

Hydrocarbon production depths generally range from 5,038 feet to 9,300 feet with production from three to six zones in the Bigenerina humblei, Cibicides carstensi and Textularia W biozones of Middle to Upper Miocene age. Structures in the area are mostly fault closures against a large, down to the south, regional growth fault that strikes east to west. Detailed analyses of old and new geological and geophysical information plus advances in modern technology have brought forth this surge of success even in the undeveloped areas of the Sound and the Sound Addition to the north.

The primary objective has been exploration of the Middle Miocene Textularia W zone. New productive Textularia W sands have also been found in two old depleted fields. This finding should renew interest in re-evaluating the older fields and exploring for new ones in this trend.

Mistress · #84 04-20-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Profit is the prime motivator of all cultures and societies that have evolved past the barter system.

To me, profit is neither good nor bad. It's a part of all transactions.

Even Jesus was okay with that.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26

B

Jesus saves, but Moses invests.

tankdriver · #85 04-20-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Profit is the prime motivator of all cultures and societies that have evolved past the barter system.

obv we'll have to disagree on this.

Quote:

To me, profit is neither good nor bad. It's a part of all transactions.

I don't think it's good or bad either. Pursuit of it can be wise or foolish. In broad generality, American business philosophy leans toward foolish. We used to be all about the future, but now we seem to be all about the present, kicking and screaming our way into a future others are creating.

Medmech · #86 04-20-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

As someone leaving for the Peace Corps in January, with plans for a career in humanitarian aid...

Yes, that's EXACTLY why I get up and go to work in the morning.

As for American car companies. It's been mentioned before, they spent their R&D money on lobbyist to legally solidify their cartel. Tucker tried to make a better car once... How did they "compete" with him?

Hat's off to you!!! Thank you for your service and keep us posted!

dxpoo · #87 04-20-2008, 12:39 PM

No thanks necessary, but I appreciate the sentiment

.

Back to topic...

The summation of the situation with ANWAR is it's a new revenue channel for the same old oil companies. Think about it, apart from the heat because organizations like Sierra Club and whatnot are involved, it's just another oil deposit. I've heard in the news where they've found at least 2 massive oil deposits just this year.

I ask you this... When did these discoveries make the costs of fuel decrease? I realize that it will take time to bring them online, but truly I ask of anyone... Show me when a new source of oil has decreased the its price for more than the shortest of short terms. There are new drilling rigs being built upon new fields all the time, and oil costs continue to rise.

So what is so special about ANWAR that it will solve, or even help to solve the energy crisis we face? Most of our domestic oil now is sold on the market to buy oil from the Middle East, and God knows what else. What guarantee do we have that we're not just wasting a wildlife treasure to provide another revenue channel for Exxon, who already misuses their alternative fuel subsidies from the government to fund exploratory drilling?

In fact, there are companies right now that are investigating large-scale algal diesel production that say they can be online in 4 years, which is much sooner than ANWAR can be exploited. These technologies can provide up to 20,000 gallons of fuel per acre, per year, or 200,000 barrels per 50 acre facility. They can be attached to existing coal and oil-fired plants to reclaim the CO2 emissions to generate even more fuel. The resulting solids from the oil extraction process can then be fermented to make even more alcohol fuel. We even waste our pollution!

Why would you rather spend the money on ANWAR, which is a finite source, will cause a tremendous negative international view of our country (this IS important in a global economy), and will create risk for a major spill in one of the last pristine environments on the planet. I'm aware of the recent safety records of the oil companies, but my generation watched them dredging dead animals out of Prince William Sound after the Exxon-Valdez ran aground. Remember, Soviet nuclear energy had a terrific record until a few tenths of a second before that famous Chernobyl fuel rod got stuck.

In light of this, I could not in good conscience support the perversion or possible loss of such a national treasure like ANWAR. Not when almost no effort is made to eliminate, or in some cases even acknowledge our tremendously wasteful habits as pertaining to energy. Earth is not a roll of Charmin, and she should not be treated as such.

EDIT: Who knew this forum that satiates my inner grease-monkey would provide a channel for such wonderful debate of issues. Even those that I do not agree with express themselves in a respectful manner, and tend to stay away from low-brow flames and ad hominem attacks. Thanks for that. Now help me with my intermittent clanking in my prop-shaft while in Park!

Botnst · #88 04-20-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

No thanks necessary, but I appreciate the sentiment

.

Back to topic...

The summation of the situation with ANWAR is it's a new revenue channel for the same old oil companies. Think about it, apart from the heat because organizations like Sierra Club and whatnot are involved, it's just another oil deposit. I've heard in the news where they've found at least 2 massive oil deposits just this year.

I ask you this... When did these discoveries make the costs of fuel decrease? I realize that it will take time to bring them online, but truly I ask of anyone... Show me when a new source of oil has decreased the its price for more than the shortest of short terms. There are new drilling rigs being built upon new fields all the time, and oil costs continue to rise.

So what is so special about ANWAR that it will solve, or even help to solve the energy crisis we face? Most of our domestic oil now is sold on the market to buy oil from the Middle East, and God knows what else. What guarantee do we have that we're not just wasting a wildlife treasure to provide another revenue channel for Exxon, who already misuses their alternative fuel subsidies from the government to fund exploratory drilling?

In fact, there are companies right now that are investigating large-scale algal diesel production that say they can be online in 4 years, which is much sooner than ANWAR can be exploited. These technologies can provide up to 20,000 gallons of fuel per acre, per year, or 200,000 barrels per 50 acre facility. They can be attached to existing coal and oil-fired plants to reclaim the CO2 emissions to generate even more fuel. The resulting solids from the oil extraction process can then be fermented to make even more alcohol fuel. We even waste our pollution!

Why would you rather spend the money on ANWAR, which is a finite source, will cause a tremendous negative international view of our country (this IS important in a global economy), and will create risk for a major spill in one of the last pristine environments on the planet. I'm aware of the recent safety records of the oil companies, but my generation watched them dredging dead animals out of Prince William Sound after the Exxon-Valdez ran aground. Remember, Soviet nuclear energy had a terrific record until a few tenths of a second before that famous Chernobyl fuel rod got stuck.

In light of this, I could not in good conscience support the perversion or possible loss of such a national treasure like ANWAR. Not when almost no effort is made to eliminate, or in some cases even acknowledge our tremendously wasteful habits as pertaining to energy. Earth is not a roll of Charmin, and she should not be treated as such.

EDIT: Who knew this forum that satiates my inner grease-monkey would provide a channel for such wonderful debate of issues. Even those that I do not agree with express themselves in a respectful manner, and tend to stay away from low-brow flames and ad hominem attacks. Thanks for that. Now help me with my intermittent clanking in my prop-shaft while in Park!

Prices will follow demand and availability.

The world population is on an exponential growth curve and energy consumption is on an accelerating curve off of population growth.

Oil discoveries are on a declining linear function.

Plot the curves.

B

aklim · #89 04-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxpoo

I ask you this... When did these discoveries make the costs of fuel decrease? I realize that it will take time to bring them online, but truly I ask of anyone... Show me when a new source of oil has decreased the its price for more than the shortest of short terms. There are new drilling rigs being built upon new fields all the time, and oil costs continue to rise.

So what is so special about ANWAR that it will solve, or even help to solve the energy crisis we face?

In fact, there are companies right now that are investigating large-scale algal diesel production that say they can be online in 4 years, which is much sooner than ANWAR can be exploited.

will cause a tremendous negative international view of our country (this IS important in a global economy),

I'm aware of the recent safety records of the oil companies, but my generation watched them dredging dead animals out of Prince William Sound after the Exxon-Valdez ran aground. Remember, Soviet nuclear energy had a terrific record until a few tenths of a second before that famous Chernobyl fuel rod got stuck.

In light of this, I could not in good conscience support the perversion or possible loss of such a national treasure like ANWAR.

Show me a time when demand has dropped. If you have 500 widgets and the world needs 500, bringing the production to 600 will drop demand. HOWEVER, if the world population grows and needs 600 then it won't. OTOH, keeping production at 500 when the world needs 600 and then 700 will cause the price to go up.

Got anything else we can sell that brings in revenue? How about manufacturing? Nope. Computer software? Try again.

Can it be made into gasoline? Can it be made into other products which we get from oil? I think not. At least not economically at this time.

Why would it do so and why do we care? It's not like we are dating the world. If we have something they want, we do business. If not, goodwill or not, they tell you to fawk off.

Are you and your generation going to avoid cars? I see cars have horrible accidents. Ships sink. Planes crash. You can fall into a hole walking too. What of it? Now if you are looking on how many barrels of oil spilled vs how many didn't, what does that equation tell you?

I can buy food with the money I get from selling oil from ANWAR. Can I eat that pristine treasure?

Hatterasguy · #90 04-20-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cscmc1

Why isn't ANWR an issue anymore? I haven't heard or seen mention of it for ages, which seems odd since oil is getting so spendy. Has the cost of oil (and OPEC's apparent disinterest in increasing production) changed anyone's mind about ANWR?

We should drill away.