On the subject of Archbishop Raymond Burke, he is gone from STL now, thankfully. That guy was a tool...he's the reason my uber-Catholic wife now takes the kids to a Baptist Church, if she goes to church at all.

I was raised RC, everyone I knew on the west side of Cincinnati was RC except for one Greek Orthodox family...that's just the way it was. You were defined by what parish you were in.

Today, I'd say that half of the RC kids I grew up with have left the church, and aren't looking back! No molesting priests that I ever saw, and I went to a Jesuit high school and college too, so I was exposed to priests for 16 years, with no ill effect.

This papal message is a wild one...can't wait to hear what he says next.

__________________
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Here's an article pretty darn close to the source:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1005201.htm


VATICAN-CONDOMS Dec-21-2010

Vatican: Pope's words on condoms do not mark change in church teaching

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI's recent comments on condom use in AIDS prevention do not signify a change in the church's moral teaching or its pastoral practice, a note from the Vatican's doctrinal congregation said.

The note, released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Dec. 21, said the pope's remarks do not represent a break with the church's doctrine on birth control, and cannot be construed to legitimize the use of condoms to prevent pregnancy.

It said that when Pope Benedict said condom use to reduce the risk of infection might be a first step toward moral awakening, he was referring specifically to prostitution, which is already considered gravely immoral by the church.

In that situation, it said, use of a condom is not a "solution" because it does not address the mistaken behavior that is the root cause of the problem. However, it added, "it cannot be denied that anyone who uses a condom in order to diminish the risk posed to another person is intending to reduce the evil connected with his or her immoral activity."

The note was published following widespread discussion of Pope Benedict's comments in a book-length interview, "Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times."

The doctrinal congregation said the pope's words had in some cases been misunderstood, erroneously interpreted and manipulated to make it seem that his statement represented a break with the church's teaching against contraception.

In the book, the pope was asked whether it was "madness to forbid a high-risk population to use condoms" in view of the AIDS epidemic.

"There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward discovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality," the pope said.

The doctrinal congregation's note said it should be clear that the pope "was talking neither about conjugal morality nor about the moral norm concerning contraception."

"The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought," it said.

The note said the pope was referring to "the completely different case of prostitution," an immoral practice which has been made even more serious by the spread of HIV/AIDS.

"Those who know themselves to be infected with HIV and who therefore run the risk of infecting others, apart from committing a sin against the Sixth Commandment are also committing a sin against the Fifth Commandment -- because they are consciously putting the lives of others at risk through behavior which has repercussions on public health," it said.

The pope's affirmation that using a condom with the intent of reducing infection could be a "first step" toward moral awakening is clearly compatible with his previous statement that condoms are not the way to deal with the AIDS epidemic, the note said.

Neither the doctrinal note nor the pope's book specifically addressed the situation of condom use by a married couple in which one spouse has HIV.

The doctrinal congregation said some have mistakenly interpreted the pope's words as an endorsement of the argument that, because of the lethal consequences of AIDS, condom use may be tolerated as a "lesser evil." It said the "lesser evil" theory is susceptible to "proportionalistic misinterpretation."

"The Holy Father did not say -- as some people have claimed -- that prostitution with the use of a condom can be chosen as a lesser evil. The church teaches that prostitution is immoral and should be shunned," it said.

"However, those involved in prostitution who are HIV positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another -- even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity. This understanding is in full conformity with the moral theological tradition of the church," it said.

__________________

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1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

It's this lacuna that opens the door to reinterpreting traditional moral theology on condoms and HIV. If it's moral for people in a relationship of sex for money to use a condom, it seems incredible to suppose that people with HIV in a loving relationship would be forbidden the same choice.

This opens the door to a discussion of the fact that sex unintended for pregnancy might be moral, contrary to Catholic moral theology.

I'm still curious about your views on sex? Do you agree that only sex intended for pregnancy is moral? Why do you hold the view if you do?

__________________
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All the pope is saying is that a person using a condom to reduce the risk of infection is taking the first step toward morality-- not that what they are doing is moral. They are merely turning in that direction.

Also, he says the use of the condom does not change the mistake of the immoral act. Yes, they are trying to reduce the evil of their act by not adding to it the infection of another, but that does not in any way change the fact that their act is evil.

__________________

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1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

So couldn't a married couple be doing exactly the same thing? Say they were living in sin in a sexual relationship and then got married? One has HIV. They decide to use condoms. How is this any different than the prostitution example apart from the fact that the prostitute is more obviously sinful than the married couple.
In addition, how is it evil to avoid bringing an HIV infected child into the world?
The door that is opened is big enough to drive a semi thru.

__________________
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1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Sorry, missed that question.

Yes, I hold the same position as the Catholic Church that sex between a (presumed husband and wife) must be open to the possibility of pregnancy. That does not deny the act of sex when a women naturally cannot get pregnant during certain periods of the month. (Natural family planning.)

It's a much larger explanation as to why I hold that view (and we're getting ready for dinner soon, so I don't have much time!!) It boils down to the belief that God created everything with a definite purpose, and to act outside of that purpose is to act outside of the will of God. In this case, the purpose of sex is to procreate. To do something to deny that possibility by unnatural means (i.e. birth control) thus denies God's will and is sinful. That's it in a nutshell.

Sex not intended for pregnancy isn't always immoral such as sex during times of the month that pregnancy has little chance of occurring. But the use of birth control to remove any chance of pregnancy even during those times of the month is immoral.

__________________

Current:
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2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

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2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

How do you explain the existence of hidden estrus? None of the early church theologians I am familiar with even addressed the issue. We now know that there are species without hidden estrus. When compared to species with hidden estrus, it seems clear that if there is a 'purpose' it must be to encourage sex in instances where the female will not get pregnant.

Do you agree with Augustine that our current experience of sexuality is a result of original sin and that had Eve and Adam not sinned we would not have reproduced with sexual passion?

__________________
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I suppose he want's us to wear them on our heads...no, not that one the "other one."

__________________
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the Catholic Church has been asking for this kid of ridicule and cynicism for quite some time. I doubt anyone here can do anywhere near the damage with our jokes that the Church has done by turning a blind eye to the horrendous behvior of its preists.
I wonder whether good men who feel called to the preisthood would even want to risk following that call anymore lest they be thought guilty by association?

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

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Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Church teaches that the purpose of sex between a man and wife is to procreate, but also to enjoy being with each other!

As far as Augustine is concerned, I haven't read that. But I'm sure he was not trying to say that the physical/passionate part of sex was born of sin.

__________________

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1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

It's not different. Condom use by a married couple is not permitted either. The pope has not changed Church teaching on condom use whatsoever. If he did, which he has not, it would have to be through an official Church statement, like an encyclical or something. Not a quote from a book.

I heard a good analogy the other day. Basically what the pope was saying by all this is like a bank robber using blanks in his gun instead of real bullets. The act of robbing the bank is still just as evil. The fact that he decided to use blanks instead of real bullets to prevent killing anyone merely shows that he wants to minimize the evil of his act. But the act is still evil just the same. It doesn't mean that robbing a bank is now moral/allowed as long as you use a gun with blanks.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

That is exactly what he argued. Sex prior to the fall would have been rational, without passion. The sexual passions that you and I feel are a result of original sin. Adam and Eve would not have been sexually aroused independent of a will to reproduce.
That's the only way that the theological argument makes any sense since the experience that we have of sexuality clearly shows that reproduction is not it's primary role. How many straight guys see a hot female and think 'I want to have a kid with her.' Instead, they get an erection and want to have intercourse. Two entirely different kinds of motivations.
Sex in our world is for pleasure, power, domination, etc and reproduction. To argue that reproductive sex is the only natural sex, you have to imagine a completely different species. Hence the idea of original sin and the fall

It's no accident that the current Pope is an expert on Augustine and holds such views about human sexuality.

__________________
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1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
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1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Expand the analogy. Is it equally good for a HIV positive husband to 'use blanks in his gun' and wear a condom? It doesn't mean that sex without reproduction is immoral, it just shows that a husband can attempt to be the same kind of moral person that the Pope allowed a prostitute to be.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Maybe it's equally not moral for an HIV husband to use a condom. Sounds harsh, but maybe in this circumstance they should not have sex. Oof!

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

You're exactly right, that's the Church's argument. It makes no sense because sex is not just for, or even primarily for, reproduction. It would only make sense in the Garden of Eden but even then it would be problematic since an HIV infected child would be born. The whole problem with the RC argument is that it claims to arise from the 'natural law' and does not require any appeal to revelation. No one that I know has ever developed a theory of human sexuality that claimed that our current experience is out of line and real 'natural' sex is only found in a prior condition of humanity that no longer exists. That argument is only put forward by people who accept the Genesis story. Hence, the Church's claim that their sexuality morality is universal and rational carries no weight.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13