WTH is wrong with some people??? Shooting at CT Elementary School - Page 49 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Fulcrum525 · #**721** 12-18-2012, 02:11 PM

Ugh 48 pages which was 46 when I started typing this response. You guys have worn me out (I was at work for a few days and have had to play catchup)

I have to say that I agree with Brian's earlier large post about comment
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/3067002-post228.html
People are always going to be violent. Whether they use guns, longbows or swords it is a trait that we will not soon shed.

If I may ask. What is the core argument here? (The thread has been swaying back and forth on a number of topics and it's become hard to keep track of where we are.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnumPI

Oh really?
Army eyes new first-person shooter game to train soldiers - Nextgov.com

Ok a couple of things on the video game argument. I would like to point out that there is a difference between a First Person Shooter and a Millitary-Simulation game. The link above would (if it worked) go to one of the later developments of a game called Operation Flashpoint which I own.

Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One clear distinction that needs to be drawn is that in the vast majority of first person shooters you are "The Man". You can run through a room and you are pretty much indestructible and can take out anything. There is a sense of vulnerability but not much. Someone is shooting at me with a flamethrower? No problem i'll just run right through it. 5 enemies shooting at me? No big deal I can take ten hits no problem and take them all out at the same time.

Now in a Mil-Sim like Flashpoint you are CONSTANTLY vulnerable just as one would be in real life. One hit and you're done and it often comes without warning too. When you're in the middle of a field with your assault rifle in a first person shooter it makes you invulnerable. In Flashpoint standing in that field when a column of T-80s comes rolling down on you any feeling of "I'm the man" disappears like a piece of paper in a fire. This is the big difference between realistic games which are niche and the much more common, and violent, first person shooters. It is interesting to note that in the market for video games these mil-sims NEVER sell anywhere near as well as the first person shooters. I guess people like the feeling of power.

Furthermore anytime the video game violence question is brought up I always question one thing. As far as I can tell every time a shooting like this has happened the perpetrators have gone in ready for battle but in the end have either given up or killed themselves as soon as the police showed up. I can't recall an incident where they stood their ground and actively fought the police (I think Jorns comments about being mentally prepared for such acts of violence come in to play and make the video game connection a mute point)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruchase

I agree with you. The proposed solution is the very threat we are trying to prevent. What if an armed teacher loses their mind and turns against their students? Yes, there will be other armed teachers to take this individual out, but the first time this happens, the 'arm the teachers' strategy will be abandoned, and we'll be back to square one.

Yes I was thinking the same thing as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwitchKitty

Anti-gun zealots are absolutely the best gun salesmen in the world. When gun control is a hot topic, gun sales skyrocket. I bet you can call gun suppliers now and they are already sold out of many items and prices are up on others. With gift buying season here, coupled with gun control fever, I bet this will be the hottest gun sales season ever. Those ATF background check computers are probably just a hummin'. I predict record sales numbers in some areas.

Propaganda and marketing are the same thing. The old saying goes something like: "no bad publicity".

You're probably right. Last night when I was on my way to get a hair cut I passed a local gun store.....the parking lot was packed and overflowing and 3 people pulled into it as I was trying to take a turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Gents, let's try a different tangent on this -
What about fighting fire with water?

Many of these methods, used to incapacitate an attacker until the LEO's arrive, might be quite acceptable to teachers, parents, and the population as a whole - whereas lethal weapons on school grounds most probably would not - and much more likely to be used, from a psychological standpoint, as the person employing said device KNOWS that they can only incapacitate, not kill.

Ideas?

It's actually a very reasonable compromise depending on the type of non-lethal device used. A large bottle of pepper spray has a very decent range from what I remember reading. Trouble is in that case is getting the spray on target while (hopefully) not getting shot in the process. I'm sure other options are out there though.

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For the current time being i've been avoiding watching TV because the media coverage of this event is at times sicking. Also i'm only scanning news articles as I would like to wait until we have a bit of hard evidence as to WHY this little dip**** was compelled to do what what he did. One thing that strikes me is that violence and lack of economic opportunity tend to go hand in hand. (I believe that someone somewhere can post some statistics about violence and poverty levels correlating.) So when shottings like this happen I am often confused as to why. I was reading about the home that this dip**** lived in and his parents lives. It's not like he was starving, far from it actually; if anything the family was quite well off. So why would he throw it all away is what I would like to know. (I suppose that in the end suicidal psychopaths are difficult to understand.)

One story that really made me burn was hearing about a threat called into a church during a vigil for the massacre. Talk about digging under the bottom of the barrel to hit rock bottom.

davidmash · #**722** 12-18-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

You propose to take my freedom, guaranteed by the contract of citizenship and tempered by the lives of many people to protect that contract and the people who hold it.

Come and get them.

How does registration of items affect your COTUS right to own them?

JB3 · #**723** 12-18-2012, 02:17 PM

the idea of auditory or incapacitating gas is an interesting one. you could rig a school with that, probably more likely the auditory one, im interested in this technology if it exists. People would have a major problem with the idea of gassing a school

The issue would still be one of reaction time. No school would have some kind of incapacitate the entire school button immediately available, what student could resist? and then of course, the way around that is a mask, or earplugs, so it would only work once. The next mass shooter would simply arrive prepared

I like the idea, but I think its likely as unworkable as cadet teachers and armored desks.

retmil46 · #**724** 12-18-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

This is an interesting idea. I think I've seen some audio solutions that can incapacitate. What if the school was rigged up for that and in the event the entire school is incapacitated and the LEO' are called automatically?

What about some kind of knock-out gas?

Even more basic than that.

What two senses did the young gent need to know he was even remotely aiming at one of his intended targets?

SIGHT and SOUND.

Turning off the hall lights, throwing a couple of smoke canisters in his vicinity, and continuously sounding the school's fire alarm or class bell, could have ended or severely curtailed his rampage depending on the circumstances - he might even have panicked and left the building altogether, if sufficently dazed disoriented and confused.

JB3 · #**725** 12-18-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fulcrum525

For the current time being i've been avoiding watching TV because the media coverage of this event is at times sicking. Also i'm only scanning news articles as I would like to wait until we have a bit of hard evidence as to WHY this little dip**** was compelled to do what what he did. One thing that strikes me is that violence and lack of economic opportunity tend to go hand in hand. (I believe that someone somewhere can post some statistics about violence and poverty levels correlating.) So when shottings like this happen I am often confused as to why. I was reading about the home that this dip**** lived in and his parents lives. It's not like he was starving, far from it actually; if anything the family was quite well off. So why would he throw it all away is what I would like to know. (I suppose that in the end suicidal psychopaths are difficult to understand.)

One story that really made me burn was hearing about a threat called into a church during a vigil for the massacre. Talk about digging under the bottom of the barrel to hit rock bottom.

I was in NYC waiting for the police press conference, and im sure others saw this as well, but I was pretty offended at the live camera showing people laughing and joking waiting for the conference. Cancel the live camera, or get those SOBs to show some decorum for the situation.

Everything thats been said in this thread about media sensationalism is no less than true. I havent been watching any news on TV after that either.

They just reminded me of a pack of smiling dogs, circling for the kill of ratings

JB3 · #**726** 12-18-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Even more basic than that.

What two senses did the young gent need to know he was even remotely aiming at one of his intended targets?

SIGHT and SOUND.

Turning off the hall lights, throwing a couple of smoke canisters in his vicinity, and continuously sounding the school's fire alarm or class bell, could have ended or severely curtailed his rampage depending on the circumstances - he might even have panicked and left the building altogether, if sufficently dazed disoriented and confused.

maybe some kind of blackout system for the windows? only way that would work is total darkness, not just darker. Lots of schools have excellent natural light

TwitchKitty · #**727** 12-18-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

How does registration of items affect your COTUS right to own them?

We can start making a game of this. In this thread, how many times has this question been asked and answered?

Lot of talk, no listening, no communication.

Disfunction at its finest.

It's kind of a dimensional thing, a disfunctional tribute to disfunction.

You can save on tickets if you buy them in bulk. Sell them to all your, um, I started to say friends, forget it.

JamesDean · #**728** 12-18-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fulcrum525

Ok a couple of things on the video game argument. I would like to point out that there is a difference between a First Person Shooter and a Millitary-Simulation game. The link above would (if it worked) go to one of the later developments of a game called Operation Flashpoint which I own.

Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One clear distinction that needs to be drawn is that in the vast majority of first person shooters you are "The Man". You can run through a room and you are pretty much indestructible and can take out anything. There is a sense of vulnerability but not much. Someone is shooting at me with a flamethrower? No problem i'll just run right through it. 5 enemies shooting at me? No big deal I can take ten hits no problem and take them all out at the same time.

Now in a Mil-Sim like Flashpoint you are CONSTANTLY vulnerable just as one would be in real life. One hit and you're done and it often comes without warning too. When you're in the middle of a field with your assault rifle in a first person shooter it makes you invulnerable. In Flashpoint standing in that field when a column of T-80s comes rolling down on you any feeling of "I'm the man" disappears like a piece of paper in a fire. This is the big difference between realistic games which are niche and the much more common, and violent, first person shooters. It is interesting to note that in the market for video games these mil-sims NEVER sell anywhere near as well as the first person shooters. I guess people like the feeling of power.

I have played Operation Flashpoint before. It is unlike any of the "first person shooters" out there. Its MUCH more realistic. Probably so much to the point where the "average" gamer would not want to play.

I would agree, people like the feeling of power and badassery (in the form of being THE MAN")

JamesDean · #**729** 12-18-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

maybe some kind of blackout system for the windows? only way that would work is total darkness, not just darker. Lots of schools have excellent natural light

Part of me says this would not really help things. Sure the shooter wouldn't be able to see, but then what if he just started pulling the trigger in random directions?

Its really hard to say what would happen, we just dont know and obviously cannot be prepared for everything without going to an extreme.

Fulcrum525 · #**730** 12-18-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

I have played Operation Flashpoint before. It is unlike any of the "first person shooters" out there. Its MUCH more realistic. Probably so much to the point where the "average" gamer would not want to play.

I would agree, people like the feeling of power and badassery (in the form of being THE MAN")

That's exactly why it didn't sell all that well.

(Most gamers that i've talked to have never even heard of it) One of the problems is that most people just didn't have the patience for it. (Then again you're talking to someone who as also played Harpoon and liked it)

retmil46 · #**731** 12-18-2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

maybe some kind of blackout system for the windows? only way that would work is total darkness, not just darker. Lots of schools have excellent natural light

No need for total darkness - you only need to obscure HIS vision and create enough noise so that HE cannot see or hear his intended targets - as I said, daze, disorient, confuse - you'd still want enough available light so his intended victims could safely and quickly get out of harm's way.

Believe me, we haven't even scratched the surface here - there's a plethora of nonlethal weapons and options out there.

JMela · #**732** 12-18-2012, 02:38 PM

It is notable that Cerebus Capital Mgmt is trying to sell off their lucrative but apparently tainted holdings in "Freedom Group" (owners of Bushmaster, Remington etc.). They call Sandy Hook a 'watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control'.

Press release:

Cerberus Capital Management Statement Regarding Freedom Group, Inc. -- NEW YORK, Dec. 18, 2012

Air&Road · #**733** 12-18-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

Go ahead and write your will to transfer the guns to the police. That way they will not come into your possession. The cops will either melt them down or sell them to their officers for $5 each.

If more people would turn their guns into the police, the streets would be much safer. Only LEOs need guns. And a safer world, is what we are all after, right?

Yeah, that's why Hitler was able to take over so easily. Once he got the guns out of the hands of everyone except the police and his Army, it was a cake walk.

Fulcrum525 · #**734** 12-18-2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Yeah, that's why Hitler was able to take over so easily. Once he got the guns out of the hands of everyone except the police and his Army, it was a cake walk.

Ooh oh oh it finally happened

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Air&Road · #**735** 12-18-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

I was in NYC waiting for the police press conference, and im sure others saw this as well, but I was pretty offended at the live camera showing people laughing and joking waiting for the conference. Cancel the live camera, or get those SOBs to show some decorum for the situation.

Everything thats been said in this thread about media sensationalism is no less than true. I havent been watching any news on TV after that either.

They just reminded me of a pack of smiling dogs, circling for the kill of ratings

Yep, almost as disrespectful as the gun grabbers that can't even wait for the funerals to be over with before starting their assualt on our right to bear arms.