The Jetta Tdi spanks the Prius Hybrid - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

junqueyardjim · #16 03-15-2006, 08:20 PM

The test was poorly done. The Journalist/tester had to be an idiot, no doubt about it. Not only in taking a different track, that was almost as stupid as running one car one way and the other car back in the opposite direction. It was stupid. But I still think it showed up that the hybrid, (maybe all hybrids) is not the answer that some people think it will be. Down the road you have battery replacement, plus management and repair of a system that has to have many bugs in it, bugs that only John Q. Public will be able to discover. And much of that is likely to be of huge cost to the owner. Then you have resale. I predict that at 5 to 7 years of age these vehicles will be so bad that buyers will run from them as if they were full of chickens dead three weeks and rotting under the summer sun.

rwthomas1 · #17 03-15-2006, 09:50 PM

AFAIK, there has been no scientific testing back to back of a Prius and a TDI. The anecdotal evidence is the TDI routinely returns 45-50mpg even cruising at 80mph. The Prius web boards have owners posting mpg's far below the EPA figures and well below expectations.

I have driven the Prius. My neighbor has one. Decent car, typical Toyota build quality. To me it feels lighter and "cheaper" than my TDI but that it subjective. Seat of the pants says its not as quick either. I also don't care for the styling. If I was buying a car strictly for stop-n-go not over 45mph commuting then the Prius is excellent. On the highway the TDI is a far better choice.

The scariest part of hybrids is that Toyota has refused to say how much they actually cost. The implication here is that they are building, or have been building them at a loss. The idea is to dump the vehicles and get consumers hooked on the technology. They make their money in the future when the technology is accepted and they can start charging what they want.

Look at the latest hybrid advertising campaigns. The Honda Accord and Lexus SUV hybrids are only hybrids to accentuate the performance while doing very little to improve the mpg's. They are trying to sell the cache of hybrids at the top end of the market. Yeah, great. How about focusing on economy, actually using the hybrid system to do what it was designed for. Diesel will likely never be misunderstood as a performance vehicle. They may be capable of it but likely will always be associated with thrift. RT

Bajaman · #18 03-15-2006, 09:58 PM

why no auto manufacturer is touting a diesel hybrid. Is seems like an obvious choice to me. Seems like a diesel would be the ultimate in a relatively constant load application such as this. Am I missing something obvious??
BB

t walgamuth · #19 03-15-2006, 10:30 PM

rather spank my wife.

seriously, i think both are fine vehicles. if you have a lot of hiway driving the tdi will prob be a better choice. a lot of stop and go and the hybrid will win. in ten years i think you will find a whole lot of hybrids on the market.

they even have hybrid city busses now.

i have driven the prius. ok car. lots of room inside, very practical package. just not engaging to drive. very much like driving a computer. i also recently drove a new tdi stick. nice car too. much more fun than the prius.

a couple of years ago i drove a new insight stick fiver. that was fun to drive too. kindof like a 240d only a bit faster. if there werent so many expeditions out there i prob would be happy driving an insight stick. i would have to put some bigger tires on it though. but with all the huge vehicles out there with dumkofpts driving them it is not safe enough for me.

and btw one of the car test mags did drive a prius or insight up pikes peak a few years ago. it ran out of battery long before the top and really struggled with its little engine and the altitude. a tdi would have smoked it (pun intended).

tom w

Hatterasguy · #20 03-15-2006, 10:32 PM

Its funny realy if you talk to MB or BMW they view hybrid's like something the devil invented.

I was reading a very eye opening article the Germans HATE hybrids don't expect one anytime soon or ever from Germany. If they do make one they won't like it thats for sure.

Anyway I am no Prius expert but their are a lot of those things in my area. Now it seems to me that everytime I see one on the highway it is in the left lane doing 80mph+. How the heck do they get good mileage spooling that little engine up that high? Isn't the point of buying one to get good mileage, shouldn't they be driven at about 60ish to acheive this?

The sad part is if what I read is true my friends E300D which is a lot more car then the Prius probably matches it mpg wise at 80.

t walgamuth · #21 03-15-2006, 10:53 PM

i read that mb is working on hybrids at present too.

perhaps even using toyota designs under liscense.

even porsche paid royalties to mitsu for the balance shaft design in their 944 engine!

tom w

tolive31 · #22 03-15-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bajaman

why no auto manufacturer is touting a diesel hybrid.

Cost. When you add the expense of the hybrid equipment to the expense of the diesel engine the ROI isn't there for the average buyer.

yellowbenz · #23 03-15-2006, 11:48 PM

My other car is a first generation prius. It's cool technology and a gas to drive in city traffic. On the highway it is tiresome especially with cross winds. The car is tall and wanders because of the narrow tires, profile and weird electric power steering. Consistent mileage in the low 40's in most seasons. If you live in a temperate climate high 40's is easy. This is if you drive the piss out it. If you follow the monitor screen that provides feedback about your mileage (histogram every 5 minutes about consumption) you can get into the 50's, but your likely to be really uptight after a short trip to the grocery store. Also, the sheet metal is so thin, my kids have dinged the hell out of the sides just getting there bikes out of the garage. Makes my 240D seem truly tank like in comparison. I'll replace it eventually, with another prius.

Kevin
240D manual

greasybenz · #24 03-16-2006, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tolive31

Cost. When you add the expense of the hybrid equipment to the expense of the diesel engine the ROI isn't there for the average buyer.

i think thats why FORD threw out their plans for their hybrid diesel suv. they had made a prototype and everything and was supposed to meet emission standards due to the hybrid technology but now we see better ways of meeting those emission standards (merc bluetec)

New2MB · #25 03-16-2006, 08:42 AM

I had the opportunity to drive a European Golf turbo diesel last year and it was incredible. It got 54mpg (6 speed manual) and it pulled hard! Handling was exceptional, braking was so damn good that you couldn't help but drive it like a race car. I would have bought one on the spot but of course the American version has quite a bit less horsepower due to the emissions components. And to top it all off, the Jetta I have right now is up to 160k miles and I've only had to do about $1000 in maintenance (timing belt) not including oil changes/brake pads. I can't wait for this one to crap out so I have an excuse to get another!

boneheaddoctor · #26 03-16-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Giant

Read this article on how the Jetta beats the MPG and other things when in competition with the Toyota Prius.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x.htm

doesn't surprise me at all.. I'd rather own the Jetta than the Prius

imagesinthewind · #27 03-17-2006, 12:54 AM

I think we're all missing the point of the hybrid.
Yeah, the TDI gets better milage than the Prius, but whole point of the hybrid is to help us learn to give up oil consumption.
The hybrids (inluding the flexfuel cars and trucks) are out there as a start to getting away from using the dino resource.
Little by little we will find better technology, better ways to make fuel and better engines to run on the new fuel.
The whole 'go yellow' camp is crap right now because of the amount of energy it takes to make ethanol. It costs more in energy to make than the amount of energy that ethanol can give. So in the future we learn to make it cheaper and faster and we make engines that run more efficient on ethanol than they do gas, diesel or electricity.
The Prius, not an ethanol vehicle I know, is just the start of a new road.
It doesn't beat the TDI but it does run partly on electric power, so it does other things that are better, like less emissions.
I'm not a big fan of the small hybrids. I've got 4 kids to taxi around and no one is making a nice safe hybrid suburban yet.
But at least it's a start, right?

rwthomas1 · #28 03-17-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagesinthewind

I think we're all missing the point of the hybrid.
Yeah, the TDI gets better milage than the Prius, but whole point of the hybrid is to help us learn to give up oil consumption.
The hybrids (inluding the flexfuel cars and trucks) are out there as a start to getting away from using the dino resource.
Little by little we will find better technology, better ways to make fuel and better engines to run on the new fuel.
The whole 'go yellow' camp is crap right now because of the amount of energy it takes to make ethanol. It costs more in energy to make than the amount of energy that ethanol can give. So in the future we learn to make it cheaper and faster and we make engines that run more efficient on ethanol than they do gas, diesel or electricity.
The Prius, not an ethanol vehicle I know, is just the start of a new road.
It doesn't beat the TDI but it does run partly on electric power, so it does other things that are better, like less emissions.
I'm not a big fan of the small hybrids. I've got 4 kids to taxi around and no one is making a nice safe hybrid suburban yet.
But at least it's a start, right?

How does this make sense? Sure the Prius runs on electricity.... Electricity that is generated by a gasoline engine! Yes it does have regenerative braking and lesser emissions but diesel technology is on the cusp of producing similar emissions through things like MB's Bluetec. They both fill up on petroleum but the TDI usually goes farther on a gallon so which is helping to kick the oil habit more?

Ethanol is not the answer. There is approximately HALF the btu's in Ethanol than Gasoline and Diesel. This means the E85 vehicles that GM is trying to sell us on actually get LESS mpg's than the current fleet. I suppose the arguement is that they are cleaner emissions-wise. So what? Todays gasoline engines are something like 98.5% clean. How much are we going to pay to glean that extra 1.5%? Doesn't make sense, the law of diminishing returns comes into effect.

We should be working on vehicles that get more MPG's at this time not cleaner emissions. It makes far more sense to reduce the demand for oil in the short term.

There are many reasons I don't care for the Prius. Technologically its a fine product, its the reasoning that is screwed up. Honda used to make a Civic HF. It was a high mpg commuter car with a slightly smaller engine and tall gearing. This car was able to do just as well or better than the Prius' mpg's. Side by side the Civic will be a better choice than the Prius just like the TDI will be a better choice than the Prius for most driving.

What Americans need to be weened off is not oil, its high HP vehicles. For the average car there is simply no reason to have any more than 150hp. Our highways are clogged with SUV's and V6 Accords, Camrys, etc. etc. that are simply unnecessary for daily use. If everyone chose to drive a fairly fuel efficient vehicle (read 4 cylinders) or a diesel, etc. then oil demand would be cut in half. Its about responsibility at this point and we are sorely lacking in that department. RT

raMBow · #29 03-17-2006, 05:54 PM

I had one of those CRX HF models, boy did I love that little two-seater. Listed at 50 City and 56 highway. Now that was in the old days of 55 mph speedlimits, but I always got excellent mileage, best was 67mpg on a trip out into Western Nebraska and back. Those are real figures. I put 50 psi in the tires, turned it off at long stoplights and could turn it off on big hills and let it coast (did not have power brakes or steering) it would seemingly roll forever. It was ungodly slow, tall gearing does not even begin to tell the story, down shift for hills, turn off the AC etc.

1.5L with 62 hp and 90 ft/lbs of torque. Bought at $8,700 sold at $5,700 and had put 80,000 miles on it.

I just do not understand why we can't get these numbers today. The thing road like a roller skate, I could stay in the drivers seat and open the fuel cap, weighed like 1700 pounds. Now the cars have to be bigger, few hundred pounds of safety stuff, plus all the extra features etc.

Emissions should be divided by the miles driven per gallon, that's the real world.

The other test I would like to see is chaining a TDI up to Prius (back to back), once the battery gave up the TDI could drag it across the country. (Not bashing the Prius, but simply different rigs, driven one, very nice, thought of buying, but not big enough, just don't see the need for all the gizmo's when I did better 20 years ago! Where is the Technology improvement? I don't see it.)

Brian Carlton · #30 03-17-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raMBow

I just do not understand why we can't get these numbers today. The thing road like a roller skate, I could stay in the drivers seat and open the fuel cap, weighed like 1700 pounds.

..........simply because every one of these vehicles are loaded up to the hilt with gadgets and it's nearly impossible to get one to come in at less than 2750 lbs., so your 60 mpg is quickly reduced to about 40 mpg.