updat ..... need help diagnosing problem, i know it's been a while, ( i have a life & work sucking up my time ) finally got it together .... but now after i started it, does not sound good @ all .... something seriously wrong me thinks .... it smokes black smoke real bad, hardly any power, feels like it's working too hard, sounds just like when a diesel is cold ONLY much louder as if something is grinding / rubbing .... ..... this is weird becuz before i fixed it ..it ran so quite you hardly knew it was a diesel ( except when it was cold ) any ideas ( other than the obvious to tear it apart which i dont have the time, $ or skill to rebuild it ..... ) go figure ...

i didnt want to run it toooooo long and shut it off ... what the ????

the timing chain was not broken, "only" the oil pump chain that had somehow wrapped itself around the crankshaft stopping thr motor dead in it's tracks

it runs somewhat smooth considering it is rattling so loud like a cold diesel ...any ideas guys ...what to look for etc ???? if i took the valve cover off and removed the lifters would that tell me anything .....


if the timing was out ...the chain would have to broke or jumped ... but it was tight with almost no play @ all ...

Let us know what town you live in. Hopefully a member will live nearby and be able to come over to help diagnose it.

__________________
Greg
2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO

i appreciate the offer but i'm kinda in the boonies so probably too far away unfortunately ... so i finally twisted the arm of a local heavy duty diesel truck mechanic that's been doing diesels forever it seems, to come and to check it out / listen to it " run " he said "it sounds to me like the timing is out by about 1 step / click or more .... that's why all the black smoke too much fuel coming in .... but since he is not familiar with mercedes diesels he wasnt sure how to reset the timing ..... and if i could find someone that knows how to adjust the timing he could maybe help me figure it out ...

funny thing is the timing chain never broke .. in fact there is hardly any slack @ all ... how could it " slip " can someone give me some ideas on how to adjust the timing .... is there a way to do it without having to take it all apart ....... again ... can't we just adjust the bosch pump or something .....

thanks in advance ......

Before doing anything like that you should do a search for the 603 start of delivery timing and using the marks on the harmonic balancer and the indicator in the IP try to verify if your are or are not timed for SOD at the spec'd 15 degrees ATDC. If you determine that spec is off then you can start thinking about retiming, but if that spec is on target then you have something else going on..

could u translate that into english for me huh ??? i'm not familiar with those acronyms pls enlighten me .... and NO ...i'm not totally newbie but not familiar with those terms .. i assume if i told my diesel mechanic what u just said he would know right ???

When you changed the oil pump chain. Was there a reason it broke? I do not know how the sprocket is affixed to the crank or if it is a double sprocket.

That is if the paired sprocket serves the timing chain and the oil pump chain. What I am driving at is if the timing is off now and it very well might be. I would suspect some kind of change occured at the crank sprocket. I inagine the lower sprocket has a keyway? Or could something have gotten in there and jumped the chain?

Anyways when you check the timing find out just exactly how many degrees it is off and post it on this thread. This may indicate what happened.

Also before that have a look to see if the cam mark and the harmonic balancer mark are where they should be. If anything like what I am mentioning occured it should have affected the cam timing as well. This could easily account for your symptoms. If both cam and injection pump timing are displaced some. You did not have the timing chain off did you?

Do not take this engine above an idle as you currently may only be saving major grief because you have hydralic lifters. In fact do not run it at all until you check especially the cam timing and then the injection pump timing. Do not ignore checking that cam timing. It is what can cause serious damage. The injection pump is not capable of creating damage. Your excess noise may be the valves hitting.

DO YOU HAVE the FSM for your Mercedes ? (Factory Service Manual)

Available at:
http://epc.startekinfo.com/

ACCESS through the USA Mercedes Electronic Parts Catalog site:

EPC-net Online

[They (Mercedes USA,through their site "Manipulator" "Snap On Business Solutions")
will ask for a U.S. based credit card # to prove that you're their
customer,BUT there's no charge for the service to your C.C.]

__________________________________________________________________

"If you've suffered an Oil Pump Failure (OR an Oil Pump Chain Drive System
Failure) JUST REPAIRING THE PROBLEM MAY NOT BE A PERMANENT FIX !!!!"


"Solved the Failure,NOT THE CAUSE!!!"

__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128

I don't know your diesel mechanic so I couldn't comment on what he'd know or not know!

ATDC - after top dead center
SOD - start of delivery
IP - injection pump

You and he think that the engine's timing is off, the basic timing specification is start of delivery and the specification for thst engine is the injection pump's internal indicator blade centered in its opening with pointer reading 15 degrees after top dead center on the harmonic balancer's markings.

You can do a search of the forum using the terms "603, Start of Delivery, Timing" or similar terms and you should be able to find a couple threads that talk about and describe the process and the particulars involved. Someone has suggested the available online Factory Service Manual the recommended procedure and details are outlined in that reference, if you take the time to investigate those information sources you would be in a better position to assist your diesel mechanic in figuring out the nature and extent of your problem and what you can do to remedy it.

[QUOTE=barry12345;3064469]When you changed the oil pump chain. Was there a reason it broke? I do not know how the sprocket is affixed to the crank or if it is a double sprocket.

That is if the paired sprocket serves the timing chain and the oil pump chain. What I am driving at is if the timing is off now and it very well might be. I would suspect some kind of change occured at the crank sprocket. I inagine the lower sprocket has a keyway? Or could something have gotten in there and jumped the chain?


yes it had a keyway that fell out and possibly may have jammed something note 100 % sure but ????
frankly it's kinda straightforward setup ... dual roller timing chain setup with a gear in front part of the crankshaft of it for the oil pump chain which runs the oil pump ... below it ..... i dont really know, the oil pump was stiff and worn, i'm thinking maybe the key fell out and jammed the chain and broke the master link ... just my 2 cents ... it was in btm of oilpan and kinda chewed up a bit .... but timing chain never came off and frankly i was surprised @ how tight it was ...barely any play so frankly cant see how it was even possible to slip or jump ... but anything is possible ????

If the Tensioner is working,the Chain will APPEAR tight.
(EVEN if the Chain jumped a Link or Sprocket Tooth)

BUT,On these engines the Chain's WEAR factor is measured by ALIGNING the
Camshaft Sprocket with a Mark on the front Camtower and then "Reading"
the amount the Crankshaft (Measured at the Harmonic Balancer) is "OFF".
[The "OFF-NESS" in degrees is the Chain's Wear.]
(Anything over 3-4 degrees is cause for Chain,Sprockets and maybe Rail
REPLACEMENT)
This is also how the Component's Timing, in relationship to each other is checked.
[However,you can have "READ" the timing marks and everything looks good...
Including the alignment of the Injection Pump...BUT for whatever reason the
Harmonic Balancer's position on the Crankshaft is not aligned.Or the Crankshaft is
NOT at the prescribed Position when the Chain/Balancer is installed.Then all bets are Off.]

ANY Oil/Timing Chain/Sprocket Failure SHOULD be Immediate cause for
rapid inspection of ALL OTHER PARTS OF THE SYSTEM!
A "BAD" Sprocket will EAT a New Chain in short order.
(It just finished the Lunch of the Old Chain,and is EVER HUNGRY for more.)

__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128

My current belief from your last post is that you have jumped timing somehow or other. Get the tang of the injection pump centered in it's opening . View it with a small mirror. Then look down at the harmonic balancers timing marks.

Do not reset the injection pumps timing because if it is way off so is the cam timing. In fact the quicker and easier test is to compare the camshaft timing mark with the balancers mark usually but you do not have the valve cover off so the injection pumps tang is easier.

thanks for the great replies guys .... it has helped me greatly .... i love the detailed explanation ... i was really feeling overwhelmed ... what to do next ..... i really was kinda @ a loss what to do ..... but after mulling over & thinking over the detailed comments i can start to see the " light @ the end of the tunnel wheeeeeeeew " kind of a combo of a doooooooooh moment / light goes on it makes sense now how the timing could really be out / jumped even tho it looks tight ... dooooooh yeah that's why its called a chain tensioner right .. hehehe i never thought about the " effect " just gotta take some time and figure out my game plan here .... check out some of the things you mentioned .... working in a non-insulated garage @ 20 below isnt exactly any fun .... ooh well i'll let u know what i come up with ....

Somwhere under the Hood is an Emission Sticker with the timing for your Car.
Rotate your Engine in the direction of rotation and you come up on the Compression Stroke, go past OT (TDC, Top Dead Center) and line the Crankshaft Damper up on the Timing Degrees on your Emission Sticker.

We will pretend that that is 15 Degree ATDC (After Top Dead Center).

There is a Plug on the Governor Housing you are going to remove (Oil will come out). Look in side the hole and see if you can see a Screwdriver Blade type projection centered in the Hole. See Pics

If it is way off center your Timing is off.

Attached Thumbnails

   

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Assuming that the pointer attached to the timing cover which has been just previously removed and reinstalled, actually accurately indicates anything!

If the pointer is missing in the injection pump port. Rotate the engine 360 degrees. Since the crank turns twice before the injection pump and cam go through one complete turn or four stroke cycle if you preffer.

Or make sure the valve lobes are generally poining upwards on the first cylinder before expecting the tang to appear in the injection pump port.

I am trying to think of the easiest approach for you. With one guy manually turning the engine the other could watch for the tang to appear might be it. When the tang is located then have a look at the harmonic balancer and post what degree reading is present. Visually centering the tang in the middle of the port is good enough.

Rotate the engine in the normal direction it runs in. If unsure looking at the fan blades will point out the obvious. It also keeps the timing chain tension more accurate.