Wifey is ready to modernize our (her) fleet. With a young family and wanting to take some road trips, the safety and reliability of a newer model is calling to us.

Right now, we are focusing in on getting a used ML. We have also considered waiting for the bluetec glk's to come off leases and start showing up next year or 2015. But, we think the c-class frame would feel cramped to us coming from our w123s. We drove a jetta Sportwagen TDI and it felt really small with bad sightlines.

I am so comfortable with my OM616, less so with the OM617, it was just so much more complex. What should I expect getting into a modern diesel? I have read some threads on CDI versus bluetec comparisons, some saying that the filters and catalytic converter robbed power - but those mostly talked about the very first generation bluetec. Are they better now?

What are the things to look for in a used ML CDI or Bluetec?

On a lark, we have also given some thought to a Sprinter Crew cab, but that's just crazy, right?

__________________

Current Mercedes
1979 maple yellow 240D 4-speed

Gone and fondly remembered:
1980 orient red 240D 4-speed

Gone and NOT fondly remembered:
1982 Chna Blue 300TD

Other car in the stable:
2013 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI / 6-speed MT

If you're coming from an very aged W123 to a near-new GLK - you're in for sticker shock and servicing cost(s) shock. Used VW diesels may be the answer for you - as you've suggested. The new diesels are fantastic, but come with a high-dollar price as well.

__________________
'06 E320 CDI
'17 Corvette Stingray Vert

I like the idea of the Sprinter but they tend not to be as well made as the cars - they all seem to rust quicker than the cars over here, but that could be down to the attitude of the people who use them. Sprinters converted to campers last longer but then I guess it is possible that they rarely get used for more than two months of the year...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

A W123 can be every bit as reliable as a new car, if you stay on top of all the issues. Only you know if you're willing and able to make that commitment. OTOH, if SWMBO demands new, I understand how that goes.

DIY on a newer model is different, but I wouldn't necessarily say harder. You will need to acquire a scan tool and software in order to do everything yourself, and the set of special tools is different. Almost anything you get in a newer diesel will be quieter, faster, and get better mileage than what you're used to driving. That being said, I can't think of anything nice to say about an ML. Newer vehicles in general have higher beltlines and small windows, so visibility is seldom if ever as good as a W123, but people make do all the time. That Jetta is probably not a bad idea.

__________________
Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 401,xxx miles
08 Suzuki GSX-R600 M4 Slip-on 26,xxx miles
88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress.
99 Mazda Miata 183,xxx miles.

I totally agree with what Joe said here.

Your old 123`s are paid for. the new/used car will have higher insurance, registration and car payments. new is always nice, but that monthly payment can get to you eventually.

All new cars seem to be designed the same way with the Belt line as Skippy mentioned. they seem to me as having the azz end up higher and the visibility zuks. so many blind spots.

Zeke, if you think a OM617 is more complicated compared to a OM 616, wait till you get one of the new/newer vehicles being produced.

Ya know, you have to live with her, we don`t, and you have to keep the peace. Don`t get rid of the 240`s what ever you do, you will need something that is dependable.

Charlie

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there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works

I missed the above last night, I highlighted IN BOLD above.

I don't think you can go wrong with either a used CDI OR Bluetec!

I think what you do is plug-in the price you want to pay, for the condition and age used vehicle you are shopping for. In general, the lower your out-of-pocket, the older & more miles the vehicle has. What I would look for is price range, records and condition. The rest falls into place when you're analyzing the vehicle in-person.

You have the luxury of buying used - which arms you with a lot of knowledge of how any given vintage MB diesel has been reported as holding up over time. -That, and way, way less out-of-pocket than buying 'em new.

Thanks for the comments so far. I read this to SO, and she wanted me to make it clear that she LOVES her 240D. Actually she is the one who ruled out the Jetta b/c of the sightlines and rough suspension compared to the 240D.

But we had both 240Ds go down in the same week, and I was stretched quite thin trying to keep at least one car on the road.

The 104* heat with no tinted windows also doesn't help.

Joe: Because this is my primary MB forum, and it is mostly frequented by those of us with pre-computerized cars, I don't really know how the CDI vs.l Bluetech have held up. I did see one 2009 bluetec that had a record of frequent paint work done and a replaced PS pump. I wondered if this was due to it being the 1st model year for BT?

Skippy: thanks, that is also some of the info I was looking for. Mostly whether DIY is even possible on newer MB vehicles.

Stretch: No worries about rust here in Texas, but I do get the impression that the interior of the Sprinter was more Chrysler than MB.

Charlie: I hear ya! You hit the nail on the head as far as the beltline - blech. No doubt we will be keeping both 240Ds.

__________________

Current Mercedes
1979 maple yellow 240D 4-speed

Gone and fondly remembered:
1980 orient red 240D 4-speed

Gone and NOT fondly remembered:
1982 Chna Blue 300TD

Other car in the stable:
2013 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI / 6-speed MT

I have an 2005 CDI and I am one of not a lot of people that have pulled the engine out of it and it really is simple. There are a lot of computer controls but that is not really a bad thing. There are no throttle cables also and no vacuum lines to mess up. The fuel goes in and out. The Exhaust goes out. The coolant is not far removed from my 1983 300sd radiator hoses and heater hoses that's it. The brakes were one of the easier ones I have ever done. A Bluetec is a whole different story. It is a V-6 with much more demanding emissions. But it is probably good for 200k miles with minimal work. Mostly oil changes, probably a water pump, coolant, filters and the usual batteries and tires. Maybe brakes if you city drive a lot.

As a side not my wife drives a Jeep Liberty CRD we got about 3 years ago and have put 90k miles on. It now has 160k miles. All of them on Veg oil. And it runs great with very little work. Tires, Fluids, filters, ball joints, a $200 A/C part (sorry I did not record what part) the big thing was a timing belt at 100k miles and every 100k miles for $1500. This is similar to a TDI. I made $20 worth of "improvements" to the engine when I got it and it became a really reliable vehicle. She loves that thing.

Stay far away from modern diesels, keep your old stuff and spend more money fixing it right, even restoring it if needed. I own both, yes it is nice to have power and fuel economy and options, however it doesn't make good math. The potential for problems with the cdi and bluetec is HUGE, and few understand them well enough to be able to fix them the first time (meaning repeated visits, towing etc). If you cannot afford dealer servicing avoid them, it is $200-500 for each service, plus plus plus. No cheap oil changes, no free lunch (but yes free coffee at the dealer). The V6 diesel leaks oil/crankcase fumes (lots of them, not isolated cases), minor components cost hundreds of dollars (each injector $800 non servicable), lots of plastic surrounds the engine that is not going to last more then ten years (mass air flow sensors are part of the duct work not airbox), just too many high dollar problems for no reason. If your happy with what you have invest heavily in it and stay happy! Glow plugs have carbon buildup issues and require frequent reaming etc. They eat tires, even light highway use tires are down real quick ($800-1200) with regular alignments. These are not vehicles you own for the long term, lease yes, own for decades no way.
I am not suggesting they are lemons, but they are "high maintenace" vs old cars and very expensive. If you think you can afford one at $20k and get by on a grand a year maintenace keep looking, you will starve over a car!
The key to this is saying a 617 is complicated, the OM642 is so much more complicated!
Even modern VW tdis are complicated, but atleast the parts are somewhat affordable and good supply of used ones is usually around. The last simple diesel sold was the 616 240D, we just bought one to replace a 2001 Jetta tdi, it was too frustrating to work on all the little things kept breaking, fix an old Mercedes once properly and drive on for 10 years...

I can't wait to have a new new new car, with warranty. Play with the diesels and drive something that is 100% good to go.

Oh and some of the things I noticed while looking for my R320 a couple years ago, most of these modern Benz's were leased and not well treated. Lots of door dings, salt stains in the carpets, cola and coffee spills (the newer interiors that are not black DO NOT come clean, stains are stains!). Look out for repaints, most have damage (way over half of the R's I looked were repaints to some extent, I looked primarily at Benz dealers so much for star certified and being damage free!). Don't trust the star certified program, have it inspected by someone how knows the vehicle and seek a detailers advice about the bodywork and paint. You should never pay market value for something that was repainted, and few bodyshops can paint anymore or repair to a price.
Look for power steering rack leaks out the input seal (steering column), oil leaks from the topside of the engine usually looks like rear main seal however it is dripping down from above through drain channels in the block or intake valley-crankcase breather vent hose and related seals and the oil cooler are usual suspects, the oil cooler is a huge repair 12 hours labour. Check the tailgate power operation common issue. Drive it pay close attention to the transmission, under light acceleration they sometimes misbehave and do funny shifts 1-2-3-4, usually higher gears are ok. Lots of service bulletins on transmission issues, expensive dealer only repairs as everything is internal including the computer. Valve body replacements or reteaches are common fixes. Air suspension is going to cost, make sure you budget for air bags at some point if so equipped, they must be fixed promptly or replace the pump from overworking too. Feel the tires, run your hand over the tread they tend to chop really fast and make noise, I have not found a cure for this yet these vehicles have huge camber and it is hard on tires. Brakes I find way above average as the engine has great compression/lots of engine braking and seldom need them. Look at the passenger side under the hood just below the windshield, the heater air intake has drains down there and sometimes they are blocked causing lots of electrical issues/interior floods. Lift the carpets and check out the sub floors, there are 8" deep compartments below the front and rear seats holding the battery and all control modules-a flood victim would pose a serious problem or salt contamination/some dumb detailer that used a hose to wash the carpets (yes it happens!).
Choose your options carefully, for me it was essential to have HID/Bi Xenon headlights, they were not that popular-a pricey option. Wait for the right one to come along, it took me 8 months of looking to find a good vehicle, I looked at every one that came up for sale, usually at Benz dealers no matter the options or colour etc, and bought the first one that was clean and genuine (and has every option as it turns out).
I manage to get better economy with the R then the older diesels especially in the winter, not a lot more but at higher speed with all wheel drive, and they start great in the cold with lots of quick heat.
But be warned, when somethings fails on these units your not going to fix it on the roadside, nor tow it home yourself without a flat bed. They are also extremely sensitive to fuel quality issues and water contamination, and forget about biodiesel or WVO. The post injection for the diesel particulate filter dilutes the engine oil and it would gum up rings and sludge the oil. There are no issues known yet about this emmissions system, but replacement costs are very high at this point.
I have the time and experience to work on mine, I enjoy babying it and going above and beyond the maintenace requirements, I read up about issues and try to be proactive as a newer Mercedes is something else to drive/comfort/power. But that being said, the old 240D is more fun to drive (way more road feel) and special, the new vehicles are very isolated! It is not something easy to work on either, the V6 is very cramped, servicing costs are high even for DIY (10 quarts of oil, filters, special tools etc). If and when something goes wrong I have the time to research and take time to fix it, if I was working full time that would not be the case and would likely not own a modern diesel. The parts for it are not easy to come by, very few parts are available online, dealers don't stock much and not a ton of info online either for engine problems etc.
I have two years and 33k miles of experience with our R320 (has 100k now), and decades of diesel experience with old Mercedes/VW etc.

That could be the case where you are - but I must say the interiors over here are not really all that great. They are made for a working life. Automotive journalists seem to think that the life span of these vehicles is ten years tops. Of course people run them for longer but I doubt if you'll get W123 longevity. I guess it is probably worth mentioning this just in case you are expecting to keep it for the next 30 years!

If you are buying a second hand sprinter I would most certainly keep this "expected life span" in mind.

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

I can only offer my opinion on the newer Diesels based on my friends experience. My friend Dave bought a 2005 E320 Diesel for about $26,000 (from an MB dealer no less). This car had less than 30,000 miles on it and it is like a new car inside and out (new car smell still there). Just driving it back home (about 100 miles from the dealer), it got an average of 32 MPG. This is one SWEET car. If you can find a low mileage example like this in your area, I am sure you will be very happy with it. Yes the maintenance and repair costs could be more than your average newer Honda or Toyota, but the car itself should outlast the others in the long run. I had a W210 (1999 E300TD), and it was wonderful to drive. You may want to think about one of these as a small step up, rather than the BIG step from a 240 up to a CDI or Bluetec. Although not like the extremely DIY friendly 240, the W210 is fairly DIY friendly, as there is much information here to keep you away from the stealership....Rich

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All Diesel Fleet
1985 R107 300SLD TURBODIESEL
2005 E320 CDI (daily)

LOTS of parts for sale!


EGR block kit
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/355250-sale-egr-delete-block-off-plate-kit.html

1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This!
Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst.

Sanden Instalation Guide (post 11):
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/367883-sanden-retrofit-installation-guide.html

If you just want another diesel of some sort, I guess it doesn't matter which one you select - provided the model has some track-record of acceptable scuttlebutt under it's belt.

If you're just needing a temporary car because both your 240Ds are "down" out-of-commission, then I would rent a car for those short periods of time.

Buying one or more cars because your other car(s) is/are out of service doesn't make much sense to me, unless you like having extra hobby vehicles around.

What is your attraction to a a diesel Sprinter van? If anything, I would be more interested in a used HD diesel pick up of some brand and vintage, versus a Sprinter.

__________________
'06 E320 CDI
'17 Corvette Stingray Vert

We have a friend with a large Sprinter, and he still gets 25 MPG. Good luck getting that in a HD truck...

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"Senior Luna, your sense of humor is still loco... but we love it, anyway." -rickymay ____ "Your sense of humor is still loco... " -MBeige ____ "Señor Luna, your sense of humor is quite järjetön" -Delibes

1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."