Question for the R4 compressor experts - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

otto huber · #1 02-26-2016, 05:41 PM

Here's a picture from the bottom of the compressor. If there's any way that I could cross reference those numbers with specific GM automobiles, I might get somewhere. My buddy from the GM dealership mailed me a couple of washers yesterday, so maybe I'll get lucky.

funola · #2 02-26-2016, 06:54 PM

Don't know if these pics helps. I took them before taking apart my parts compressors to get the outer band to make a R4 press and also for future identification if there is a a future need before throwing the guts out.

Don't know if it means anything but the Delphi has the same SAE number as your Harrison.

otto huber · #3 02-26-2016, 07:46 PM

[QUOTE=funola;3574592]Don't know if these pics helps. I took them before taking apart my parts compressors to get the outer band to make a R4 press and also for future identification if there is a a future need before throwing the guts out.

Don't know if it means anything but the Delphi has the same SAE number as your Harrison.

Thanks for the pics. I guess that the SAE # has nothing to do with sealing washer size, because my old compressor was also a Delphi with the same port sizes as the one you posted. I misstated the brand of the old compressor in my first post, I thought that it was Behr.

Fortunately, it looks like I found the washer that I need. The O'reilly's near me has a good store manager, and he opened up some kits for me and found a black washer with the same inner and outer diameter as the red washer but thinner. The black washer fits into both ports. I'm waiting on a new drier, so I'm hoping to have everything sealed up by the end of next week and get a leak test in mid March.

funola · #4 06-23-2016, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=otto huber;3574603]

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

Don't know if these pics helps. I took them before taking apart my parts compressors to get the outer band to make a R4 press and also for future identification if there is a a future need before throwing the guts out.

Don't know if it means anything but the Delphi has the same SAE number as your Harrison.

Thanks for the pics. I guess that the SAE # has nothing to do with sealing washer size, because my old compressor was also a Delphi with the same port sizes as the one you posted. I misstated the brand of the old compressor in my first post, I thought that it was Behr.

Fortunately, it looks like I found the washer that I need. The O'reilly's near me has a good store manager, and he opened up some kits for me and found a black washer with the same inner and outer diameter as the red washer but thinner. The black washer fits into both ports. I'm waiting on a new drier, so I'm hoping to have everything sealed up by the end of next week and get a leak test in mid March.

How did the R4 work out? I see in your first post you bought a shaft seal kit. Did you take apart the R4 and do a full re-seal? It is not hard if you have the tool to press out the casing. I made a tool out of an old R4 in a couple of hours and tested it- Looks 3rd world but works great! I plan on re-sealing the R4 in my 85 300D, renew all o-rings on the fittings, flush system, replace TXV and dryer, pressure test and refill with R12. I have a full 30 lb jug of R12 sitting around waiting to be put to use. I currently is testing R152a DustOff and it is cooling great. I will continue testing the R152a well into Aug- Sept when it will be much hotter and then go back to R12 in Sept when it is still hot. Meanwhile have to gather/order parts.

Couple of good videos on R4 resealing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vImsu-D_Qnk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zZyeEgDdyY

seal kits:

GM R4 AC Compressor Gasket Shaft Seal Kit Green HNBR Metal Shaft Seal Tool | eBay

GM R4 A C Compressor Reseal Kit with Shaft Seal O Rings and Seal Install Tool | eBay

otto huber · #5 02-27-2016, 12:00 PM

I've been using Castrol 15-40 Diesel motor oil for the past two years and have concluded that Castrol is by far the best motor oil for the 617 engine!

leathermang · #6 02-27-2016, 12:18 PM

Otto, Well, that is certainly the definitive test... thanks for reporting it... that will shut down the need for any more oil discussions ....
I always used Castrol in my motorcycles....and I found out that the local Toyota dealer used that when changing oil on customer's cars... decades ago...our Toyota's were amazing for longevity.... 300k miles plus on a four cylinder gas engine... super...

otto huber · #7 02-27-2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Otto, Well, that is certainly the definitive test... thanks for reporting it... that will shut down the need for any more oil discussions ....
I always used Castrol in my motorcycles....and I found out that the local Toyota dealer used that when changing oil on customer's cars... decades ago...our Toyota's were amazing for longevity.... 300k miles plus on a four cylinder gas engine... super...

I used the nuclear option to re-hijack my hijacked thread. I'm fine with people discussing whatever. I received some good answers and found suitable washers. For people doing a search on AC in the future, this thread might be a little difficult to sort through.

vstech · #8 02-27-2016, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otto huber

I used the nuclear option to re-hijack my hijacked thread. I'm fine with people discussing whatever. I received some good answers and found suitable washers. For people doing a search on AC in the future, this thread might be a little difficult to sort through.

nah, I'll move the coil conversation to the ac thread to better focus on the original topic.

glad you got hooked up!

leathermang · #9 02-27-2016, 07:52 PM

Vstech, I agree on the evap description and relative to the change to 134a situation... was not addressing that.... One reason that MB warned against using the 'site gauge' back when we had them was that the correct test conditions were almost impossible .. except in a MB dealership to test and not leave the possibility of bubbles EVEN WHEN THE SYSTEM WAS FULLY CHARGED.... which allowed the possibility of Over filling by someone... .... but on the moving the evap part.. we had to have something to do while we waited for things like the good picture of the compressor.... etc...

BillGrissom · #10 02-22-2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mannys9130

... People are allowed to be wrong.

Count me "wrong". My 1985 has a Sanden H13 on Rollguy's brackets. My 1984 has the R4 that came with it and will stay such because I have another used R4 (or 2?) plus a new R4. Both cool the same, best I can tell (given the quirky climate controls). Also "wrong" because I use Duracool hydro-carbon refrigerant and PAO 68 oil, which could be why my R4 lasts thru our severe Central Valley summers (>110 F).

I went thru the R4 sealing washers issues last summer, and share my notes below. I found the washers at a local NAPA (using their online PN search), and they were in an old box. I am also trying to attach a pdf from Four Seasons that details it. But, this is for a factory Harrison. Apparently, many replacement compressors have different seal pads, so you might need to keep researching.

Suction port:
Four Seasons 24358, yellow
NAPA PN 407279
AutoACRepairs PN GA4508, $3
GM PN 2724888
1.32" OD (33.2 mm) x 0.12" th (3 mm), ~0.585 " ID
compressor hole recessed ~0.08"

HP outlet port:
Four Seasons 24357, green
NAPA PN 407278
AutoACRepairs PN GA4506, $3
GM PN 2724890
1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.216" th (5.5 mm), 0.61" ID
compressor hole recessed ~0.16"

Included in some kits, but not used:
Four Seasons 24356, red
AutoACRepairs PN GA4507
GM PN 2724889
1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.15" th (3.8 mm), 0.61" ID

3-seal kit (red, grn, & yell washers, w/ inserts, use only grn & yell):
Four Seasons 24342
AC Delco PN 15-20058
AutoACRepairs GA 4504-KT, $9
GM PN 2724887
O'Reilly's PN 24342 $15

Red & grn washers only:
CompressorWorks PN 620230

Oil:
Total system 8 oz
Makeup for:
drier 0.3 oz
evaporator 1.4 oz
condenser 0.7 oz
used compressor 2.4 oz
new compressor 6 oz

otto huber · #11 02-22-2016, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillGrissom

Count me "wrong". My 1985 has a Sanden H13 on Rollguy's brackets. My 1984 has the R4 that came with it and will stay such because I have another used R4 (or 2?) plus a new R4. Both cool the same, best I can tell (given the quirky climate controls). Also "wrong" because I use Duracool hydro-carbon refrigerant and PAO 68 oil, which could be why my R4 lasts thru our severe Central Valley summers (>110 F).

I went thru the R4 sealing washers issues last summer, and share my notes below. I found the washers at a local NAPA (using their online PN search), and they were in an old box. I am also trying to attach a pdf from Four Seasons that details it. But, this is for a factory Harrison. Apparently, many replacement compressors have different seal pads, so you might need to keep researching.

Suction port:
Four Seasons 24358, yellow
NAPA PN 407279
AutoACRepairs PN GA4508, $3
GM PN 2724888
1.32" OD (33.2 mm) x 0.12" th (3 mm), ~0.585 " ID
compressor hole recessed ~0.08"

HP outlet port:
Four Seasons 24357, green
NAPA PN 407278
AutoACRepairs PN GA4506, $3
GM PN 2724890
1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.216" th (5.5 mm), 0.61" ID
compressor hole recessed ~0.16"

Included in some kits, but not used:
Four Seasons 24356, red
AutoACRepairs PN GA4507
GM PN 2724889
1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.15" th (3.8 mm), 0.61" ID

3-seal kit (red, grn, & yell washers, w/ inserts, use only grn & yell):
Four Seasons 24342
AC Delco PN 15-20058
AutoACRepairs GA 4504-KT, $9
GM PN 2724887
O'Reilly's PN 24342 $15

Red & grn washers only:
CompressorWorks PN 620230

Oil:
Total system 8 oz
Makeup for:
drier 0.3 oz
evaporator 1.4 oz
condenser 0.7 oz
used compressor 2.4 oz
new compressor 6 oz

Thanks Bill. I'll take this information to my NAPA store and see what I can get. I wish that I figured this out before I mounted the compressor.

mannys9130 · #12 02-22-2016, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillGrissom

Count me "wrong". My 1985 has a Sanden H13 on Rollguy's brackets. My 1984 has the R4 that came with it and will stay such because I have another used R4 (or 2?) plus a new R4. Both cool the same, best I can tell (given the quirky climate controls). Also "wrong" because I use Duracool hydro-carbon refrigerant and PAO 68 oil, which could be why my R4 lasts thru our severe Central Valley summers (>110 F).

Definitely. Hydrocarbon refrigerant's been beat to death already so I won't even attempt to touch that one... I'm glad to hear your Mk. 1 hand can't tell the difference between the two cars. My points still stand. Once you have to fuss with an R4, rip it out and put what's much better in its place. In Tucson, we see extreme temps that reach 115* F and subpar AC systems make themselves evident very clearly.

vstech · #13 02-26-2016, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mannys9130

Definitely. Hydrocarbon refrigerant's been beat to death already so I won't even attempt to touch that one... I'm glad to hear your Mk. 1 hand can't tell the difference between the two cars. My points still stand. Once you have to fuss with an R4, rip it out and put what's much better in its place. In Tucson, we see extreme temps that reach 115* F and subpar AC systems make themselves evident very clearly.

I agree that the R4 is an inferior compressor... but it's been in use for decades, and the problems with it in this car are the car's design limitiations, NOT the compressors...

the biggest problems are the HUGE evaporator coil, and the massive interior and glass in the vehicle, and the minuscule condenser area in the car.

changing to a sanden will get you longer life out of the compressor... but if you want to use the R4, and you already have it... be SURE you address all the problems with the vehicles system.

start with a PERFECTLY CLEAN condenser... clean it inside and out. all fins need to be meticulously cleaned and straightened... or replace the thing with a new coil. flush the hoses, and clean the evaporator.

a filter in the line feeding the condenser would do very little, as filters are designed for liquid flow to clean... and there is no liquid flow before the condenser. the screen might catch some debris when the compressor grenades, but not worth the leak potential in my opinion.

now, protecting the TXV with a filter after the condenser is a great upgrade... no idea why the receiver doesn't incorporate a filter in it...

123/126 ac systems simply aren't gonna cool well stock without upgrades if the vehicle operates above 92F ambient... sanden or R4...
CERTAINLY not with 134 in them...

vstech · #14 02-26-2016, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

I agree that the R4 is an inferior compressor... but it's been in use for decades, and the problems with it in this car are the car's design limitiations, NOT the compressors...

the biggest problems are the HUGE evaporator coil, and the massive interior and glass in the vehicle, and the minuscule condenser area in the car.

changing to a sanden will get you longer life out of the compressor... but if you want to use the R4, and you already have it... be SURE you address all the problems with the vehicles system.

start with a PERFECTLY CLEAN condenser... clean it inside and out. all fins need to be meticulously cleaned and straightened... or replace the thing with a new coil. flush the hoses, and clean the evaporator.

a filter in the line feeding the condenser would do very little, as filters are designed for liquid flow to clean... and there is no liquid flow before the condenser. the screen might catch some debris when the compressor grenades, but not worth the leak potential in my opinion.

now, protecting the TXV with a filter after the condenser is a great upgrade... no idea why the receiver doesn't incorporate a filter in it...

123/126 ac systems simply aren't gonna cool well stock without upgrades if the vehicle operates above 92F ambient... sanden or R4...
CERTAINLY not with 134 in them...

remember... I did say clean the evaporator... you pointed out how much crud gets in there... but it's extra important to clean the heat rejection coil... the condenser. or the pressures build too high for the R4, and it disintegrates... black death.

ROLLGUY · #15 02-26-2016, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

but it's extra important to clean the heat rejection coil... the condenser. or the pressures build too high for the R4, and it disintegrates... black death.

That is another reason to have the condenser fan on whenever the compressor clutch is engaged. I designed the relay to do just that. Having the fan on right away gives the condenser a jump start, rather than having to wait for the thermal fan switch to turn on the condenser fan.