My Custom 1980 W116 300SD Project Part 2 - Page 9 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

funola · #**121** 07-26-2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiggle Dog

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Doing the air conditioning charging myself just seemed like such a hassle on top of what I'm already doing. The new expansion valve is set up for R-134a, so it will need to be adjusted to the proper superheat values. I was hoping to be able to just take it somewhere, having them pressure test, vacuum, charge it, adjust the expansion valve, and then hopefully I could forget about it for many years.

I don't know what material the diaphragm in the expansion valve is made of, but even if it's metal, I suspect it could probably wear out eventually, and then the spring inside can wear and affect the superheat values anyway.

That's ironic since what you have done already is much harder and a lot more time consuming than evac and charge. Since you are a DIY why not DIY the whole thing so you have more bragging rights?

How much R12 do you have?

I would use the old R12 TXV. Nothing much goes wrong with them. Just spray it down with brake clean. I have taken one apart and it appears to be all metal construction. The capsule unscrews. I have not taken the capsule apart because it is destructive but it does look like the diaphragm in the capsule is metal. A simple test to check if the TXV is jammed or not is to mark the needle with a marker pen, put it in the freezer and see if the needle moves.

funola · #**122** 07-26-2018, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diseasel300

A quality 40W pencil iron is more than adequate to desolder and resolder those pins. Between the SL and the SDL I've done so many I've lost track and never once had an issue. The key is a decent tip. A 1/8" "screwdriver" tip is my go-to for anything heavy.

I think a 40W 1/8 " "screwdriver" tip is borderline for heavy duty soldering on connectors/ terminals with a lot of mass. A 1/4" tip with min. 60 watts will work much better.

ROLLGUY · #**123** 07-26-2018, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

That's ironic since what you have done already is much harder and a lot more time consuming than evac and charge. Since you are a DIY why not DIY the whole thing so you have more bragging rights?

Agreed, and I should be doing this myself as well. I have spent a lot of money at the A/C shop during these past years, I could have purchased my own equipment (A/C charge/recycle machine). The shop has probably done 40+ of these systems for me in the past years that I have been involved with Sanden retrofits. I would definitely have to do more learning about pressures and other aspects of system charging before I do it completely by myself though.

Squiggle Dog · #**124** 07-26-2018, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

That's ironic since what you have done already is much harder and a lot more time consuming than evac and charge. Since you are a DIY why not DIY the whole thing so you have more bragging rights?

How much R12 do you have?

I would use the old R12 TXV. Nothing much goes wrong with them. Just spray it down with brake clean. I have taken one apart and it appears to be all metal construction. The capsule unscrews. I have not taken the capsule apart because it is destructive but it does look like the diaphragm in the capsule is metal. A simple test to check if the TXV is jammed or not is to mark the needle with a marker pen, put it in the freezer and see if the needle moves.

I just didn't want to add more work to this already enormous project. I figured it would be SO much easier to just drop off the car at a shop for a few hours instead of spending countless hours of research, buying more tools, getting certified, and possibly messing it up.

My car takes 2.65 lbs of R-12. I don't have any myself. I'm just going to have a shop put some of theirs in.

Interesting about the expansion valves. My biggest fear with using the original is it either not working, being worn out, or not working for long. I have a new one already, but it's set up for R-134a and made in China, so it would have to be adjusted and then who knows about the quality.

Diseasel300 · #**125** 07-26-2018, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

I think a 40W 1/8 " "screwdriver" tip is borderline for heavy duty soldering on connectors/ terminals with a lot of mass.

Not all irons are created equal. An el-cheapo from Radio-Shack will NOT heat and maintain the tip like a decent iron will. I've used a 40W Weller for the past 25 years and soldered thousands of connectors with it. It's plenty capacity to even solder together 2 #12 wires. Your solder matters too. A decent 60/40 or 63/37 alloy with a rosin flux core will make any solder joint gorgeous and resistant to fracturing again in the future.

funola · #**126** 07-26-2018, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diseasel300

Not all irons are created equal. An el-cheapo from Radio-Shack will NOT heat and maintain the tip like a decent iron will. I've used a 40W Weller for the past 25 years and soldered thousands of connectors with it. It's plenty capacity to even solder together 2 #12 wires. Your solder matters too. A decent 60/40 or 63/37 alloy with a rosin flux core will make any solder joint gorgeous and resistant to fracturing again in the future.

Agree you need a good iron. I had a Weller TC 202 60 W soldering station with interchangeable tips for many years. You choose the tip for the size of the job.

The 1/4" fat tip gets the toughest soldering job done.

ROLLGUY · #**127** 07-26-2018, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiggle Dog

My car takes 2.65 lbs of R-12. I don't have any myself. I'm just going to have a shop put some of theirs in.

A W123 takes 2.2 pounds for a stock system. Having a P F condenser, even if is the same dimensions, will take less refrigerant. Good thing is, you can use the sight glass for R12. That way you can get it perfect. Another reason I use a shop for my V&C, is that they have UV dye in stock. They mix it with the 2oz of oil that is put in during the charge process. If you have a shop do it, be sure to have them put some dye in your oil.

Squiggle Dog · #**128** 07-28-2018, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

A W123 takes 2.2 pounds for a stock system. Having a P F condenser, even if is the same dimensions, will take less refrigerant. Good thing is, you can use the sight glass for R12. That way you can get it perfect. Another reason I use a shop for my V&C, is that they have UV dye in stock. They mix it with the 2oz of oil that is put in during the charge process. If you have a shop do it, be sure to have them put some dye in your oil.

Wow, see modifications make things hard. It's worth the effort as one ends up with a better performing system, but its sure difficult for the person doing the calculations. I'm sure the sight glass will be useful, and unlike the drier that's currently on my car, the new one I got has the sight glass facing outward so it can actually be seen instead of facing the radiator!

Squiggle Dog · #**129** 07-28-2018, 06:01 PM

I've been having problems getting suitable fittings for making the air conditioning hoses because the ones I need are uncommonly stocked shapes due to lack of space and the oil cooler line bracket always obstructing the path the hoses needed to go. Unfortunately, I seem to be the first person to try mounting a Sanden compressor in a W116 300SD, other than 1980sd who fabricated a bracket to fit a Sanden-style compressor which has a totally different head. In my searching, I looked through Klima Design Works' site and noticed that they had a Sanden conversion kit complete with hoses that fits the W116 300SD: https://www.klimakit.com/product/w116-sanden-sd-ac-compressor-mounting-kit/ . My curiosity and frustration got the better of me and I ordered one of their kits. I just HAD to see what their solution was.

I selected the option for "uncrimped hoses" so I could build the hoses the way I wanted using a mixture of the fittings and hose provided and my own. What I was sent was a set of crimped hoses. I was disappointed as that wasn't what I had asked for. But, I really liked the way they designed one of the hoses to go underneath the compressor to reach the condenser. It also looked like the hose going from the compressor to the evaporator was going to fit well once I adjusted the power steering return hose out of the way. Both hoses also came with strain relief brackets. So, it was a blessing in disguise; I decided the crimped, completed hoses would work great as-is, and I'd just deal with the fact that they have R-134a ports on them.

Unfortunately, it appears that the hose that goes from the compressor to the evaporator is about two feet too long! Also, the 13X965 belt that was sent with the kit is way too small. I have a feeling I'm the first customer to order the W116 kit. I think that the W116 has a larger crank pulley than the W123 and W126--when I had ROLLGUY's bracket on my car, it came with a 940mm long belt, and now they are being supplied with 950mm belts. There is no way either of those would fit (a 13X990 was the smallest belt that would fit), so it must be a difference in the W116 crank pulley. The compressor I am using is a standard Sanden 508 with a 32mm pulley.

Klima sends an adapter that can be soldered onto the compressor wire so it plugs into the factory connector on the wire harness. I ended up cutting a brown ground wire from a spare wire harness I had and put some heat shrink tubing on the connector end. I used a piece of sheathing from the harness and fed both wires through. I attached the ground wire at the screw that holds the bracket that secures the power wire.

I crimped and soldered the provided connectors onto the wires.

The connectors are snapped into the plastic housing.

I found that my compressor has a crack in one of the ears.

The Klima bracket goes across two sets of ears instead of just one, so hopefully it supports it enough to where the crack won't be an issue. I'm also worried because my compressor clutch was really hard to turn and couldn't be done by hand, even with the caps off. I had to use a ratchet to turn it when I was replacing the oil with 5 oz of double end-capped PAG100. I saw little metal particles coming out of the shipping oil. I hope that was just manufacturing residue. The compressor hasn't even been run yet and I'm questioning whether it's good to use at all.

I have to say that I am very happy with the Klima Design Works Sanden adapter bracket. While the one from ROLLGUY is great, I am finding that I have a little more clearance over the skid plate mounting arm and belt tension adjustment is easy. Then again, the Klima kits are more costly and your average W123 or W126 isn't going to have the clearance issues the W116 has. The W116 is an odd duck.

vwnate1 · #**130** 07-28-2018, 07:11 PM

Rich ;

You said the W123 uses 2.2 pounds of R12 so how much R134a is used in your setups on the W123 with the newer condense? .

I'm guessing 2 pounds even is too much .

TIA,

ROLLGUY · #**131** 07-28-2018, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

Rich ;

You said the W123 uses 2.2 pounds of R12 so how much R134a is used in your setups on the W123 with the newer condense? .

I'm guessing 2 pounds even is too much .

TIA,

24-28oz with a PF condenser.

vwnate1 · #**132** 07-29-2018, 12:09 PM

Thank you Rich .

funola · #**133** 07-29-2018, 03:47 PM

Tag on my 1985 300D indicates W123 takes 2.9 lbs of R12. The higher amount than older W123's probably due to increased volume created by a bigger condenser. Maybe it has a bigger evaporator too?

Squiggle Dog · #**134** 08-01-2018, 08:13 PM

Since the firewall grommet for the low pressure air conditioning hose (116-997-24-81) is no longer available, I was forced to find a suitable replacement. Part number (113-997-01-81) replaced it as it fits the same size hole and has a similar angle. The center hole needed to be opened up for the hose to fit, so I covered it with electrical tape to protect the surface of the grommet and ground the hole larger with a rotary tool, cutoff disc, and sanding drum. It worked!

The grommet on the far left is a new 113-997-01-81 grommet. The grommet in the center is a new grommet with the hole cut larger so it can replace the original 116-997-24-81 grommet on the right.

The new grommet and bumpers (116-466-08-82) installed on the new low pressure air conditioning hose.

The main reason I purchased the Sanden conversion kit from Klima Design Works was because I was having frustration figuring out the hose routing and they seemed to have a solution for this as their kit came with hoses (however their site does not show pictures of the actual hoses, or the kits installed in any cars for that matter, which would be helpful as it's hard to understand how things are supposed to work).

The discharge hose going from the compressor to the condenser was cleverly designed and fit well. It goes underneath the compressor and has a strain relief bracket. Unfortunately, the low pressure hose gave me problems. With the compressor properly positioned, one of the oil cooler lines was in the way of where the fitting and hose needed to go. To get around this, I reversed the position of the hose clamp so it leaned away from the oil cooler line (which isn't the way the picture in the instructions shows). This allowed for proper clearance, but then the angle of the fitting was wrong so the hose clamp was in a twisted state. The service port would also hit either the strain relief bracket, the oil cooler pipe, the power steering return hose, or the body of the car unless it was positioned exactly as shown, which is different than what the instructions showed, and I doubt if there would be enough clearance to get the charging hose on there.

The low pressure hose seemed like it was about two feet too long, so I contacted Klima. They said that the hose is supposed to loop forward and fit in the bracket on the inner fender as the original did. The illustration in the W116 appendix just shows it going straight back to the evaporator, so a different illustration or instructions would have been helpful. I tried routing it as original, but it seemed to put way too much strain on the compressor fitting, which was at nearly a perpendicular angle to the hose, the hose seemed like it was kinking, and it would have been under way too much tension. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with this, and they said that I could shorten the hose if I liked and they'd send a new fitting to crimp on at no cost; but I'm just going to make my own hoses, which is a shame because that was the whole point of buying the Klima kit.

Squiggle Dog · #**135** 08-01-2018, 08:14 PM

The oil cooler line mounting bracket from Klima didn't fit my car.

The ridge in the center of the power steering pump bracket prevents the oil cooler line bracket from fitting flush.

When I tried tightening down the bracket, the ridge caused it to bend.

I put the Klima bracket up against the bracket from ROLLGUY's kit. I had no problem with ROLLGUY's bracket fitting, and you can see that his is cut deeper to clear the ridge. Klima said it's strange and they have never had any complaints about their brackets before, but if I want to cut mine to fit, they'll let me do it without voiding the warranty. Unfortunately, I can't use ROLLGUY's bracket because it's longer than the Klima bracket as his goes underneath the oil cooler lines and the lower corner sticks out further, so it interferes with the way the hoses on a W116 have to route. The Klima bracket mounts on top of the oil cooler lines, so there is more clearance below, which is another reason why I wanted to try the Klima kit.

I had the same issue with the Klima kit that I had with ROLLGUY's kit; the belt provided (11X950 for ROLLGUY's, 13X965 for Klima's) was way too small to fit. Both claim that it is the proper belt size for the OM617 turbo engines, but the W116 version must have a larger crank pulley as the compressor has the recommended 132mm pulley. Klima suggested removing the adjuster bolts from the bracket and trying to fit the belt. Doing that, I was able to just barely squeeze on the belt, and then getting the bolts back in was tricky. Once the belt was fully tensioned, the adjuster had hardly moved at all. So clearly, that wasn't going to work. I found that for my 1980 W116 300SD, a 13X990 belt fit perfectly on ROLLGUY's bracket, and a 13X980 belt fit perfectly on Klima's bracket.

The 13X990 belt that I was using on ROLLGUY's bracket was a bit too large on Klima's bracket, so I went to AutoZone to try a 13X980 belt since I had purchased the other belt from them being as their Duralast belts were made in the USA by Dayco, which I felt was a better option than a Continental, which are now made in China and I couldn't find that size in a genuine Mercedes belt (and even genuine Volvo in 13x992 are no longer available). Well, this time the Duralast belt said made in China on it. At least the belt fit, so I know the proper size. I figured that if I'm going to run a Chinese belt anyway, I'd prefer to have a Continental. But, then I discovered there is a genuine Mercedes belt in a close size (12.5X975 004-997-36-92), so I ordered one to match the power steering and fan belts.

My overall opinion of Klima Design Works' Sanden conversion kit is that they probably make a great product for the W123 and W126, but it seems the W116 version needs work. I got the impression that I was their first customer to install the W116 kit, but they said that they have sold many of these and have never heard a complaint other than some people didn't like the low pressure hose setup. Their bracket is really well-engineered. Then again, just about all the rest of it didn't fit, and those are the parts that made me decide to try it out. But, for a W123 or W126, their kits are probably great.

ROLLGUY's brackets get the job done and I didn't have fitment issues with his other than the belt alignment being 1/4" off, but some spacers and longer bolts fixed that. The oil cooler line support bracket fit well, it's just that it gets in the way of the W116 low pressure hose routing, but not an issue with the W123 or W126.

Sometimes learning can be expensive, but now I know the pros and cons of both brackets and my car is getting closer to have working air conditioning for the first time since I've owned it.