W123 vs curb - curb won the battle - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BillGrissom · #31 04-18-2018, 12:34 AM

Don't limit yourself to opinions here. Many older U.S. cars use similar coil springs and people deal with them every day. I am sure there are many youtube's. I have seen coil springs swapped on TV car shows. I recall one where the spring looked like yours with the LCA lowered, and they just pry-barred it out and watched it roll across the room. They then forced a new spring in by hand. But, I would be more careful.

One thing to watch is don't tighten the pivot bolt until the weight is on the wheel so that the LCA is at its normal resting position. That will clamp the rubber bushing when in the neutral position. If you tighten it with the LCA hanging down, the rubber can shear as the LCA rotates upward. By the same token, loosen the pivot bolt to relax the bushing, and your LCA may drop down further, but put a chain thru the spring first. Look for other things that may be stopping the LCA from dropping down (shock?). If you can work the spring in by hand later, you won't even need a spring compressor since raising the LCA will do that.

ROLLGUY · #32 04-18-2018, 09:21 PM

It is my experience that the LCA can't be lowered enough to allow the spring to be installed (or removed) at full uncompressed length. If you could lower the LCA as much as possible, and at some point the spring will shoot out like a shotgun blast. The lower spring pad gets angled as the spring extends. At some point the spring will slide off the lower spring pad with enough force left in it to KILL YOU. Heating up the spring is the safest way to get it out (yes I have said this before, but it is very important). Just looking at it with the spring pad at that angle scares me, and I am many miles away!

barry12345 · #33 04-18-2018, 11:31 PM

You posted really great pictures incidentally.

Also just in case you did not think of it. The inner curved portion of the spring is under a lot more compression than the outer curve of the coil. Actually if the radius of the curve is severe enough the outer coils could be in actual tension.

In a relative fashion that situation is present now. So you would chain the lower part of the spring to the perch. Heat the coils one at a time as needed on the more compressed inside of the coil and the coil will do two things. Start losing the tension and tend to straighten up.

Heating the coils on the outside of the coils curve could further increase the curvature. So besides a chain on the coils. A chain so the lower end of the spring cannot exit the lower pocket is also something I would do. Because as the spring tries to straighten up it may otherwise try to leave the lower pocket. Or at least the tendency to do it would increase.

The front springs on most older Mercedes historically have been longer than other brands of cars. This allows more vertical movement in the suspension than others have.

Typically or untypically the shocks are also even more important than in many cars as a result. If the cars used to bottom out on their front suspension in the old fintail days. Usually the shocks were shot. I have never had a 123 type with really bad shocks. Still the suspension design is similar enough it might exhibit the same tendency.

I did not even want to post any more on this thread. At the same time I kept thinking the guy is 22 and could be my grandson. I cannot think of a more dangerous area or situation of a car to work on.

What could happen if he took a chance? Or misjudged the situation? Was he aware of the tension/ compression component existing?

My brother in law was by the other day and I mentioned what a site member was dealing with. He still works on a multitude of cars. He mentioned he lost a less dangerous spring years ago. It hit the concrete floor and rebounded. Right out through the roof of the building.

The only way you will not get hurt in life is by basically doing nothing. Doing many things over the years it is almost unavoidable. The more you do the greater the chances. I am not accident prone but still have gotten hurt a couple of times. Beyond the minor scratches, cuts, bruises and sprains.

my83300cd · #34 04-19-2018, 06:20 AM

It's a 400 dollar car, with high miles and a previous front end collision. Poor paint on fender, now totaled front end with a very dangerous spring situation.
If it was a mint low mile loaded example with every bell and whistle working, maybe worth the trouble.
Its not.
I'd call the tow truck to haul it to the wrecking yard and consider it lesson learned, don't hit curbs at high speed.

vstech · #35 04-19-2018, 06:59 AM

First step is a spring compressor.

Next is to put a jack under the lca.

Next, cut the guide rod in half, so you can straighten the spring enough for the spring compressor to fit in.

Get the compressor hooked in and take tension off the spring, and then remove the shock.

Then drop the lca and remove the spring.

Replace the guide rod mount and the rod itself, and see how it looks.

Take pictures.

t walgamuth · #36 04-19-2018, 07:09 AM

The picture of the backside of the guide rod mount looks pushed in. Could be just an appearance but it looks like the exhaust is pinched in there. At some point if so much is bent in the front end structure the car will not be worth fixing.

The damage looks like enough to total the car when it was worth 4000 as opposed to 400. the whole front end structure is designed to telescope back to absorb an impact...so when it is pulled back straight it may also be compromised structurally.

ROLLGUY · #37 04-19-2018, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

First step is a spring compressor.

Next is to put a jack under the lca.

Next, cut the guide rod in half, so you can straighten the spring enough for the spring compressor to fit in.

Get the compressor hooked in and take tension off the spring, and then remove the shock.

Then drop the lca and remove the spring.

Replace the guide rod mount and the rod itself, and see how it looks.

Take pictures.

Now this sounds like a good way to go about removing the spring. The added benefit is that the spring can be saved. This now has my vote......Rich

ROLLGUY · #38 04-19-2018, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my83300cd

It's a 400 dollar car, with high miles and a previous front end collision. Poor paint on fender, now totaled front end with a very dangerous spring situation.
If it was a mint low mile loaded example with every bell and whistle working, maybe worth the trouble.
Its not.
I'd call the tow truck to haul it to the wrecking yard and consider it lesson learned, don't hit curbs at high speed.

I, as well as others would disagree. It matters not what was paid for the car, it is still worth the effort to get back on the road. Replacing the worn out/bent parts will not be very costly. The car in it's repaired condition would be worth FAR more than ANY other car (Domestic or foreign) of similar age, condition, and mileage in my opinion.

vwnate1 · #39 04-19-2018, 10:40 AM

PLEASE mind the safety warning here ! .

A VW Mechanic back in the 1970's splattered his spine all over the shop wall when he disrespected a Super Beetle's strut spring, Mercedes springs have far more tension .

barry12345 · #40 04-19-2018, 01:22 PM

The center axis of the spring is currently slightly on the safe side of the bent pocket. The curve is also helping to keep the spring in place.

If the method of straightening the spring up for a compressor was employed . Make sure the bottom of the spring is really anchored well. Otherwise it could kind of slide off the bottom pocket. If one were attempting to move things around. The bottom of the spring should be anchored as well as the spring to itself.

The issue present on this site is we all have different experience levels and abilities. Also different risk assessment levels. Springs getting away even with experienced mechanics are not a totally unknown event.

I for example am not really an old total fuddy duddy yet. Even though most of the sand in my hourglass has run through.

About the only difference now is it takes me longer to get jobs done. The women might still appreciate this. If I could get my hands on them. .

The thought of a young fellow doing something that could even have the potential of really hurting him bad. Just does not turn my crank. I think some other posters if not all on your thread have the same concerns.

Basically be very, very cautious around car springs. Even more so with that one. You logically came to this site for ideals and help. The best component of the responses so far. Plus the methods presented is not to do anything really risky. It just is not worth it. Front end springs on cars actually maim and kill people. Your problem with the spring is a minor one if done properly. Enough said as you have been cautioned. If you cannot do it safely scrap the car.

dinman · #41 04-19-2018, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

It is my experience that the LCA can't be lowered enough to allow the spring to be installed (or removed) at full uncompressed length. If you could lower the LCA as much as possible, and at some point the spring will shoot out like a shotgun blast. The lower spring pad gets angled as the spring extends. At some point the spring will slide off the lower spring pad with enough force left in it to KILL YOU. Heating up the spring is the safest way to get it out (yes I have said this before, but it is very important). Just looking at it with the spring pad at that angle scares me, and I am many miles away!

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345

You posted really great pictures incidentally.

Also just in case you did not think of it. The inner curved portion of the spring is under a lot more compression than the outer curve of the coil. Actually if the radius of the curve is severe enough the outer coils could be in actual tension.

In a relative fashion that situation is present now. So you would chain the lower part of the spring to the perch. Heat the coils one at a time as needed on the more compressed inside of the coil and the coil will do two things. Start losing the tension and tend to straighten up.

Heating the coils on the outside of the coils curve could further increase the curvature. So besides a chain on the coils. A chain so the lower end of the spring cannot exit the lower pocket is also something I would do. Because as the spring tries to straighten up it may otherwise try to leave the lower pocket. Or at least the tendency to do it would increase.

The front springs on most older Mercedes historically have been longer than other brands of cars. This allows more vertical movement in the suspension than others have.

Typically or untypically the shocks are also even more important than in many cars as a result. If the cars used to bottom out on their front suspension in the old fintail days. Usually the shocks were shot. I have never had a 123 type with really bad shocks. Still the suspension design is similar enough it might exhibit the same tendency.

I did not even want to post any more on this thread. At the same time I kept thinking the guy is 22 and could be my grandson. I cannot think of a more dangerous area or situation of a car to work on.

What could happen if he took a chance? Or misjudged the situation? Was he aware of the tension/ compression component existing?

My brother in law was by the other day and I mentioned what a site member was dealing with. He still works on a multitude of cars. He mentioned he lost a less dangerous spring years ago. It hit the concrete floor and rebounded. Right out through the roof of the building.

The only way you will not get hurt in life is by basically doing nothing. Doing many things over the years it is almost unavoidable. The more you do the greater the chances. I am not accident prone but still have gotten hurt a couple of times. Beyond the minor scratches, cuts, bruises and sprains.

So guys, this is weird.

I paid the guy at the junkyard $75 for a whole control arm, guide rod, guide rod mount, and all associated hardware. That is with him removing the spring. I asked him if he knew the dangers of working with that spring, he said yes.

He literally just disconnected the guide rod from the body, set a jack under the LCA, disconnected the spindle from the UCA, disconnected the spring from the top of the car, and SLOWLY lowered the jack. The spring just fell out on the ground. He removed the LCA from its mount, removed the spindle, and i was on my way.

I would be somewhat scared to go this route on mine, being that lowering the LCA could upset the spring with the way it is sitting, causing it to rapidly decompress and shoot out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by my83300cd

It's a 400 dollar car, with high miles and a previous front end collision. Poor paint on fender, now totaled front end with a very dangerous spring situation.
If it was a mint low mile loaded example with every bell and whistle working, maybe worth the trouble.
Its not.
I'd call the tow truck to haul it to the wrecking yard and consider it lesson learned, don't hit curbs at high speed.

Well, i have a lot of time into bringing the drivetrain back up to good health, so i wouldn't do that. Plus it doesn't have the first bit of rust on it. Was a Cali car for most of its life, then Texas, now Louisiana.

Also, i enjoy it for what it is since it is not in mint condition. I put it through the paces. Go down trails in the woods. Hit mudholes. (Attempt) to climb hills. Drifting. Etc. I don't really worry about it getting minor damage because it has had a rough past. I've got everything working now besides the A/C, Cruise control, Blend doors, door locks and rear antenna.

I've taken it on 2 long trips now, one ~700 miles round trip and one ~1000 miles round trip, and it did great. Rolls along as smooth as could be at highway speeds. Squeezed almost 500 miles out of a tank of fuel

Paid $400, including that, i have ~$1800 in the car with all repairs and improvements (not including this mishap).

You cannot find me a car that is this enjoyable for that price. Nor will it look as good, drive as good, and give me the same experience for this price.

I know $1800 isn't the end of it, but any cheap car is going to cost money to keep on the road. And i would much rather do it with a w123.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

First step is a spring compressor.

Next is to put a jack under the lca.

Next, cut the guide rod in half, so you can straighten the spring enough for the spring compressor to fit in.

Get the compressor hooked in and take tension off the spring, and then remove the shock.

Then drop the lca and remove the spring.

Replace the guide rod mount and the rod itself, and see how it looks.

Take pictures.

Ah, cutting the guide rod. Good idea. I never even thought of that. Would that potentially cause the LCA to move forwards too quickly, and maybe upset the spring?

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

The picture of the backside of the guide rod mount looks pushed in. Could be just an appearance but it looks like the exhaust is pinched in there. At some point if so much is bent in the front end structure the car will not be worth fixing.

The damage looks like enough to total the car when it was worth 4000 as opposed to 400. the whole front end structure is designed to telescope back to absorb an impact...so when it is pulled back straight it may also be compromised structurally.

That is just a weird angle, the exhaust is fine in that area.

I'm hoping all of this will be OK after the repair, but i have a good feeling about it.

I'm almost considering just fixing the damaged stuff at the moment, and then rebuilding the suspension at a later date. Just to make sure it is going to drive correctly after the repairs. I am about to be away from the car for a few months anyways, so no reason to rush to put the front end back together.

But i would like to hand the car off to my dad while i am gone so he can drive it. Just to keep it from sitting up under a tree for months

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

PLEASE mind the safety warning here ! .

A VW Mechanic back in the 1970's splattered his spine all over the shop wall when he disrespected a Super Beetle's strut spring, Mercedes springs have far more tension .

yikes. some of my friends are just saying put a pry bar under it and "pop it out"

They dont understand...

my83300cd · #42 04-19-2018, 07:44 PM

I get that you can fix it, and have money into it, and well understand the attractiveness of quality built goods. The real issue is can the spring be removed without maiming or killing you. I have fixed all kinds of stuff that normal consumer types woukd have kicked to the curb. The maim or death part is what brings me pause.
You could secure the spring with 3/8" wire rope looped together with 4 or 5 fist grips tighten to 30lb ft each. That's what we use to suspend scaffolds. Then if you do the loosen and drop method it can't get away.

BillGrissom · #43 04-19-2018, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinman

... causing it to rapidly decompress and shoot out. ...

Uh, did you miss the part where >10 people told you to loop a chain thru the spring and secure it to the LCA or spindle? Then it can't shoot out. Many other chicken-little posters seem to have missed that too. We speak of sturdy chain (or wire rope). Ace Hardware and Home Depot sell it. Secure it w/ chain couplers or grade 8 bolts.

Don't let others convince you to junk the car. Many always do that, because it isn't their dollar and/or they have never fixed anything. You just need to replace the guide rod and its mount.

vwnate1 · #44 04-19-2018, 09:28 PM

Agreed ;

*if* you're competent and work safely I'd say fix it .

JUST BE Careful ! .

If you saw how broken up I am you'd give pause .

dinman · #45 05-10-2018, 02:02 PM

OK, so i got the car completely back together last night. New LCA and guide rod.

Big problem though. Maybe. Hopefully not.

The alignment shop wont touch it, they say the tie rod ends are seized and they do not want to be held responsible for breaking them.

The car pulls to the right. Not violently, but enough to where you know it has to be wearing tires out prematurely.

Other than that car is fine. No vibrations or weird noises. Had it up to highway speeds.

Here's my question to you guys- since i am not going to get into an argument with the guys at the alignment shop.

Since i did not even touch the tie rods during this repair, they are not bent, and the car was tracking 100% straight before, shouldn't the tie rod not be the issue?

Shouldn't the issue be the guide rod being way off from where it was before? Because it is.

When i was installing the guide rod into the LCA, i had the guide rod set to the exact number of threads as the original bent one. Well, with it set to that, the guide rod was too far forward in it's slot on the LCA. So i backed down on the guide rod to make it fit in the LCA. Should i have pulled the LCA forward instead, rather than messing with the guide rod?

I didn't adjust the guide rod back to where it matched the original one, because i figured the alignment shop would do that for me.

Maybe i can get it back to how it was by adjusting the guide rod? That should push the LCA toward the front of the car, correct?