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  #1  
Old 12-27-2002, 04:41 PM
LarryBible
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Trouble Setting IP Timing

Well, I finally got my shop cleaned out and started with my daughters 300D. It's been smoking alot and the transmission not shifting right.

I found the linkage off of the vacuum gizmo on the back of the IP, so I think that problem is behind me.

I pulled the valve cover, adjusted the valves and checked timing chain position. It was right on the money.

I blocked off the EGR valve just to make sure it was not the source of the smoke.

I set it at 24 BTDC on the compression stroke and removed number one line, the pintle valve under the fitting and connected the drip tube. I wired the throttle wide open and started pumping. It gave a steady stream of fluid, until I turned the pump a little at which time I got a cloudy stream. I never got a drip.

When I put this engine back together about a year ago, I had to mess around with the pieces under the fitting on number one cylinder to get it to hit. I pulled the barrel that the pintle goes into and checked the seal below it and put it back together and it started firing. I expect there is something wrong in the IP related to that cylinder and that's why I can't get a drip. I'm at a loss.

Has anyone ever seen such a thing like this before?

Thanks and Happy New Year,
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2002, 04:52 PM
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I have yet to run into this specific problem but, and I hate to say this, you may be facing an injection pump "calibration". I was at the local Bosch diesel injection shop the other day and watched the tech "calibrate" one. Pretty interesting set up they have to do it with. I was quoted $250 to calibrate one.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2002, 05:18 PM
Old Deis
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Larry, from your description I take it you suspect the pintle assembly for the #1 injector is not right?
If that is so, maybe another of the five could be disassembled to check the parts, and the order they go into place?
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2002, 05:57 PM
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Larry

Most likley no help, but you did not mention the little spring that you need to put back in when timing, I wont mention how I know this is possable to forget, just a thought. Have you tried the bubble method? By "cloudy stream" you mean nasty fuel. no?
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2002, 07:18 PM
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Ya Like I said, just a thought. Guess you need a parts car pump, to bad its not as easy as your 240D to switch around.
thats what I wound up doing when I thought I had a problem with my daughters pump. Good luck I never got to the "innerds"
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2002, 07:22 PM
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Larry, if you want I can send you my '85 300D IP as a loaner for a couple weeks. Based on how fast my machine shop works it will be at least a month or so before I have the engine back and need the pump. Does your IP have the part on the side closest to the block with the wire coming out of it? The '85 model does and I know when I worked on my friends '83 300SD it does not have this feature. I've seen it's purpose described somewhere around here but I forget what it is for. I do know that it makes the nut closest to the block a pia to get to.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2002, 08:04 PM
LarryBible
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There are only a few parts you can take out without messing up the calibration. The nuts on top that lock down the part in a specific spot are the calibration, or at least part of it. I did not touch those and I know everything is in there right.

As I said, when I had the problem with that cylinder missing, I kept messing with it, and it finally started hitting.

I don't think calibrating will get the job done. I think there is something deeper in that particular barrel that is not right.

All your experiences are appreciated.

I can't really put any major money in this car right now. I will have to find a way to poor boy it back into good shape.

Happy New Year,
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2002, 08:21 PM
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I am constantly amazed at how trouble free the injection pumps on 616/617 engies are. I know next to nothing about fixing these pumps because I've never had a problem with one. (knock on wood)

Larry - If you can't get it working to your satisfaction I have a couple of 300D pumps around. You would be welcome to one on a permanent or semi-permanent basis.

Tim
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2002, 08:42 PM
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Larry

You might try leaving the IP where it is and while pumping turn the crank with a large breaker bar very slowly. That's the way I timed my 240 and my 300 after all sorts of fun trying to do it with the bubble method.

If everything is ok, you will find a point as you rotate the crank where the flow cuts off abruptly. It might not stop completely but you will see it slow down very clearly. Try it several times until you get the hang of it. Then just read the advance off the marker.

My 300D was about 4 or 5 degree too far advanced and that caused a lot of black smoke at idle. Since timing chain wear would only retard the start of delivery, this was caused by a mechanic who didn't know what he was doing trying to "tune" the car.

My 240, which hadn't been touched by anyone was about 2 to 3 degrees retarded caused by timing chain wear. When IP timing is retarded, the engine runs very smoothly at idle but smokes some at high speed.

HTH
Joe
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2002, 02:29 AM
LarryBible
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Tim Freeh,

I'm overwhelmed by your offer. I will mess with it some more before throwing in the towel on the pump. If I do I may take you up on it.

Your generosity says a great deal about a man that I have never had the pleasure of personally meeting.

Engatwork,

The same goes for you. You must be a trusting soul to offer the loan of a major component while your engine is apart.



The generosity of my mercedesshop siblings is deeply appreciated.

Happy New Year and May God Bless,
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  #11  
Old 12-28-2002, 08:20 AM
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LOL - I am a trusting soul the majority of the time. I only lose that trust when someone does me wrong then I don't have anything to do with them. I have my injectors loaned out right now to my friend with the 300SD. I know how slow my machine shop works and the rule of thumb around here is - "don't try to rush the machine shop". I'm considering rebuilding the transmission AND getting the car painted while the engine is apart. You think the machine shop works slow you ain't met my body shop.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2002, 10:28 AM
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240Joe Your way of timing interest me. Even though I have been wrenching on these old diesels for several years , getting the timing right has always been guesswork. I have the correct by the MB manual way memorized , but it seems that it does not always work that way.

I am trying to understand exactly how you are doing this: You say you are rotating the engine around untill you see the exact change in the flow. If it does not end up on 24 degrees are you setting the drip flow rate at that setting instead of the standard 24 degrees.

I just built and installed a new bottom end in my 240D, and here I am back to same old sore subject,getting the timing right.


MBJOE
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2002, 06:07 PM
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mbjoe

Gee I thought I was using the old fashioned method. What I do is remove the ip pipe and take out the spring and element then put the pipe and some sort of drip tube back on. Block the throttle on full and then rotate the crank around until you are about 30 degrees btdc. Then start pumping the hand pump. You should see a steady stream of fuel coming out of the drip tube.

Then, as you continue to pump the hand pump, slowly rotate the crank. It is best to use a long breaker bar to turn it very slowly. When you see the flow cut down sharply, you are there. Just read it off the indicator.

It takes a little practice, but you can then see where you are. If you're within a degree or so, I would leave it

I guess the way you are doing it is to leave the crank at 24 degrees btdc and rotating the IP to the point where the fuel cuts off. They should be the same, but if you're just checking, I wouldn't want to loosen the IP since it might be ok.

Let me know if I wasn't clear enough..

Thanks
Joe
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2002, 06:55 PM
LarryBible
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240Joe,

You've touched on a sore subject for me. Your description sounds like it would work fine on a four cylinder. I LOVE working on the four cylinders. On the five, however, it's near impossible to wrench the harmonic balancer bolt from the top.

The reason I say this is a sore subject is because I hate the limited access to most everything on a five relative to basically the same engine with one less cylinder.

I wouldn't take two really nice 300D's with their automatic transmissions, limited access while working on them and automatic everything, for one good manual transmission 240D with manual everything.

Thanks and Happy New Year,
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2002, 07:03 PM
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I agree with you on the lack of room on the 300s. The way I worked around that on my 300 was to put the socket on the power steering pump nut. I may regret that if I ever have to get that nut off, but it was the only way I could do it by myself.

Joe
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