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  #61  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:12 AM
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Posts: 376
In regards to the pin height. The ones I received from the dealer were too long. I tapped them in until they bottomed and realized they would not allow the front cover to torque down. I just got out the good ole Dremel and eyed it and cut it square, leaving enough to fit into the recesses in the front cover.

Tinker

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  #62  
Old 06-12-2007, 03:23 PM
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Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,597
Racing,

When you examined the photos of the connecting rod bearings did you notice the upper half bearings had a small hole drilled in them? My local MB dealership is having difficulty ordering the bearings and says the part number I quoted from the bearings, 102 3411 for the lower and 102 3410 for the upper, is nonsense. He orders 8 of the same part number. Which is not what we pulled out. Any idea of what is going on? Do these bearings normally have a different upper and lower bearing half? If so, and the dealer can't get them, do you have a source for them? Thanks, Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #63  
Old 06-12-2007, 05:57 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
ALL 102 bearings differ between upper and lowe half.
Jim.
Take a look "up" the conrod.
Thereīs an oil channel drilled through it.
That hole in the upper bearing half is essential for the piston pin to get oil,and at the same time serves the purpose of piston cooling.
To my knowledge there are only two variants.
Those for the early and thos for the late style conrods-which has the register tab a little different and are a little narrower.
You want the late ones for your rods.

If you run into issues one of the largest vendors of parts for the 16V in the world is a man by the name of Thorsten Stadler.
He understands english perfectly well and can be reached at
www.190teile.de
As you can gather heīs in germany.Hann-munden to be more specific.
IOW,expect some delivery time but the man can get you anything you need.Incl EVO parts and the downright unobtainable.
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  #64  
Old 06-12-2007, 06:05 PM
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Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,597
Racing,

Thanks for the confirmation of the logic in the bearing half designs. I will order them and if they don't come with the right configuration, I will get in touch with your source. Thanks again, Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #65  
Old 06-12-2007, 06:19 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
In all honesty..you should really get yourself an EPC for the 201 chassis.
Then you can not only order by the numbers,but sometimes thereīs "B" numbers available as well...and these normaly carry a lowe price tag as the pts are from an alt supplier.
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  #66  
Old 06-12-2007, 06:22 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
..and Jim.
Just to be an ass,and to rub it all in..
Weīre currently working at a solution to bring this little gem into the 21 century




Yup.
OEM AMG for the "klasse1" engines...and the idea is to CNC cut them to specs beyond belief in any colour you like
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  #67  
Old 06-13-2007, 12:33 PM
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Location: Lake Geneva, WI.
Posts: 1,676
Sweet!
How the hell did you get a hold of that!
__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

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  #68  
Old 06-13-2007, 06:13 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
We got asked by 190 teile.de to come up with a 21st century solution to the guilliotine setup.
So we did..
IOW,the delivered the OEM AMG intake for inspiration as well-and to take measurement from.
No point in reinventing the wheel.
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  #69  
Old 06-14-2007, 09:47 PM
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Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,597
Maybe in a year or two I can get into one of the new creations. At the moment I am confounded by the existing OEM stuff.

The new connecting rod bearings came in and they have holes on both halves. And the holes are not round, they are oblong, and look like they were flame cut in the bearing shell. MB says they make all the bearings that way now.

So, we will use a plastigage tomorrow to verify we have an acceptable clearance and hopefully will be all set to put the bearings in and close up the front cover this weekend. We are wondering if we should take the main bearings out and replace them now too.

Well, if you would like to see some photos of these new bearings, let me know and I will take some and post them. They look much better in the area where the bearing and crank journals face each other, but having the extra hole, and having it look like it was cut with a flame is not encouraging.

A few more hours of cleaning to go and we will be getting ready for reassembly. The intake manifold assembly is coming out quite nice. We have only the wheel cleaner step to complete that item. I will take it to a car wash with the high pressure rinsing tool tomorrow. A little gasket scraping left on the water pump and the pan, as well as the block, and some general housecleaning around the areas where I threaded the pins to get them out, as well as all around the crank and connecting rods.

Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #70  
Old 06-16-2007, 05:05 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
Funny.
Bearings i know of with oblong holes are the mains?
Never seen em for conrods-those have always been a drilled,and thereby round,hole.

Compare the width of the old and new one-please.
Something sound odd here..
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  #71  
Old 06-16-2007, 07:23 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,597
Racing,

The bearings turned out to fit fine, and they are all closed up now. We did the plastigage routine to verify we had a good replacement bearing set on the least worn connecting rod bearing, at cylinder number 4, and the worst worn one, at cylinder number 2. Both turned out to be slightly larger clearances than 0.04mm (slightly greater than 0.0015 in.). Which is about nominal or a bit tight.

The odd thing we found, which may explain the appetite the chain developed for guides, is the bearing on the distributor drive gear was completely shot. I will photograph it and post some photos. But that item had been ejected into the pocket behind the bore that supports it, normally, and was quite chewed up. So is the little shaft journal for the sprocket and drive gear. The front cover side is fine, for some reason. No scoring there, or other signs of distress. So it would seem the chain was allowed to go nuts as it rolled over the distributor drive sprocket, which may have led to the lunching of the two "Kunststoff" guides - one in the head below the camshaft sprockets and above the distributor drive sprocket, and the one below the distributor drive sprocket that was mounted on those pins the chain also ate.

Anyway, anything tricky about pushing a bearing back into the bore of the block casting where the old one came out? The bore looks fine, but the bearing sure doesn't.

We will be replacing the sprocket drive assembly, and the bearing in the block. Any reason to remove and replace the bearing in the front cover if it looks fine?

Thanks,
Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #72  
Old 06-16-2007, 09:07 PM
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Sounds like you have quite a task at hand Jim! I spent a good hour reading over this thread. I am debating weather or not to rebuild the 16v engine that i have in parts sitting here...

Well this thread came up during a search for Front and rear main seal replacements, but i guess your not to that step yet. Oh well, on with the search... Best of luck to you, and sorry about your dog. We had to put our Golden down awhile back due to some nasty seizures.
__________________
1993 2.6 (040) SportLinE 5-speed - Armed to the teeth w. roof rack/2x bike carriers/8x ski carriers/MB towing bumper
1993 2.6 (040) - deceased/reincarnated as a trailer.
1987 16v (702) - Now parting out(9/22/10)!!! - Email me your requests for 16v parts- Engine and full body kit avail!!
1987 300SDL (122)- For sale!
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  #73  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:08 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143


Opposite end of this one?(I know,the Q of the pic sux..but still)

No.Nothing special.
When i take those out of the block i simply use a hacksaw blade and stop just before breaking the bearing in two.
They could most likely be punched out as well-into the cavity and then wiggled back and out-but i donīt want to stress the bore itself by that much to risk anything for the crush of the new bearing.Hence why i try to weaken the old one as much as i can.

Yes,that can very well be the culprit for the massive havoc to the timing chain system.
How does the distributor gear in itself look?

Upon installing the rear bearing for the dist gear make sure the oil holes lines up
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  #74  
Old 06-17-2007, 11:49 AM
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Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,597
Racing,

I took some photos of the main support bearing, the one that fits in a bore in the block with a significant sized pocket behind it where the bearing ended up essentially on its own with a bunch of babbet debris, and the distributor drive sprocket and gear assembly. The babbet material is nearly destroyed, and in its "final" location, it has spun into a position where it blocked the oil flow hole in the bearing support ring.

The outside diameter support ring on this bearing is split, which kind of surprised me, but that must be how they get the bearing to stay in place in the bore in the block. As you push it into place the spring in the outer ring sort of holds it in position? Since the bearing is so destroyed I am not sure I have all of it, and wonder how it is pushed into place and then retained and the bore in the block does not seem to have a lip or anything to keep the bearing from going into the cavity behind it. Any hints would be appreciated.

The bearing support bore in the block is relatively unmarked as well. I am enclosing a photo of that as well, as I was concerned the bearing was spinning in the bore and might have damaged the bore. Seems ok to me. Let me know if you see anything that would suggest otherwise.

The journal on the sprocket and gear assembly that engages this ruined bearing is seriously marked up. Not real deep grooves and the like, but really covered in circumferential grooving (light), smeared babbet material and generally worn unevenly axially across the surface of the journal. Nasty.

The sprocket seems to be worn pretty heavily, with an imprint of the chain link on every two teeth. The distributor drive gear on the same shaft seems ok, some minor optically apparent wear marks (kind of a shiny line where contact was made) but no removed metal, and nothing that picks up lint from a cloth or is detectable as a depression when closely visually examining the surfaces.

The journal on the end that is supported in the front cover is relatively fine. It looks like it does not engage the bearing on the other side much past the oil supply hole. I take it this bearing is not that heavily loaded.

The bearing in the front cover is very lightly scored over about one-third of the circumference and the rest is essentially untouched. It looks like the journal hardly touches the bulk of the bearing surface. None of the marks is particularly deep and cannot be felt by pushing your finger in the hole. The clearance between the journal and the bearing babbet feels like it is a couple of thousandths of an inch, which means it is not tight, but not really sloppy.

Let me know what you think. Thanks, Jim

Photos show the distributor drive gear main bearing damage. There was a good deal of the babbet from this bearing stashed in the pocket behind the bore for this bearing in the block. Serious damage.

The next photo shows a close up of the distributor drive sprocket and gear assembly main journal bearing. Also serious damage.

The next photo the whole distributor drive sprocket and gear assembly showing both journals.

The last photo is of the Bore in the block for the distributor drive sprocket and gear assembly main journal bearing. The bearing shows readily apparent signs of having spun in this bore, yet the bore looks and feels pretty good.
Attached Thumbnails
1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement-distributor-drive-gear-bearing-damage-second-view.jpg   1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement-close-up-distributor-drive-assembly-main-journal-bearing.jpg   1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement-distributor-drive-sprocket-gear-assembly.jpg   1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement-bore-block-distributor-drive-sprocket-gear-assembly-main-journal-bearing.jpg  
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #75  
Old 06-17-2007, 03:36 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
Those bearings come split.
Ie,thatīs the way theyīre supposed to look.
Only reason i can see for the block side bearing to go awol is that it must have seized out of some reason,and the main Q would be what caused it.

Install of new ones-both the block one and the timing cover one-is as straight forward as it gets.
Like stated above use a hacksaw blade and just knock them out carefuly.
Install with a drift and a hammer,no aftercorrections should be necessary.
To clean the recess out use a pair of tweezers and after that liberal amounts of petroleum based degreaser and a brush.Let rinse run to the ground(Ie;do this before you put the pan back on)

I guess the scoring on the front bearing is from the rear breaking lose and the shaft then wobbling around?
Check the bearing surfaces of the dist gear with a nail.Pull it across the bearing surfaces and NO resistance should be felt-at all.
If it does,take the shaft to a lathe to have it micropolished with extremely fine emery cloth.(800 up and water)

One reason for seizure could be lack of lubrication.
Either from the oiling hole not having been completely true with the delivery hole or from to tight a clearance(altho thatīs less likely)
IOW,try and investigate the cause.

That these engines "eat" gears is normal.One of the sidekicks of running to soft a chain if you ask me,and worn gears are more or less to be considered OEM over time.
If they get to be completely out of whack(yours obviously isnīt) all isnīt lost.
The lower ones are stock 102 ones,and as such aint an arm and a leg.
The cam ones tho...are highway robbery.
..and the beuty is that these can be modded with industrial parts without to much hazzle,however..again a lathe is needed.
None the less it IS worth the effort seing what merc as well as aftermarket vendors charge for them,and the gears are an industry standard 3/8" split.
Thatīs a job for a machine shop tho-like mine.
Check the pricing..and get ready for the laugh of a lifetime...cause merc REALLY went up the wall on that one.
The duplex chain boys are even worse off than us simplex 2.3 guys.

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