Hi all - I'm the guy with the 1993 190 2.6 he loves and takes incredible care of. Why? I'm beginning to wonder myself.

At the 90k mile service I spent close to $4k on all kinds of necessary maintenance, the service itself and precautionary measures. New suspension, brakes, water pump, rubber hoses/lines/belts, interior bits, wheel bearings (front), O2 sensor this, PVC valve that and a multitude of other minor, mostly-wearout type things (covering the front and back of two full service forms).

I ended up with the same great car but one that ran like new and handled slightly better than new. And it was worth it as hey - this is my commuter car, it's paid for and it's going to go for another 100k miles before it needs anything, save tires and brakes. Plus, it's rock-solid, rattle-free and fairly fun to drive. Almost four grand to make it like new? Sure, no problem.

Then oil consumption started to increase. Fairly dramatically. 8k miles later I'm still shy of 100k miles total and it looks like valve guides and seals, and maybe a timing chain "while they're in there", which is not really "in there" as I come to understand it b/c there's a big difference between the TOP of the engine and the FRONT of the engine. Like six hours of labor. A search of three respected independent MB shops (respected for quality of work - honesty is always a ?) around here puts me in the $2000 ballpark if the valves look great, the $2500 neighborhood if they also need some R&R, but of course "you can't see that stuff until you're in there". And to get at the FRONT of the engine, roll in a new chain and change the guide or the tensioner runs another $700 or so bucks on top of that.

So I could very well be either getting ripped off or more likely coming to grips with the idea that as a multiple-MB owner my luck has taken a turn for the worse and the concept of a well-engineered, long-lasting and worth-the-money piece of machinery is really no better than a japanese "piece of ****" (pardon my french and prejudice). You see, my other MBs went well past 200k with no more than regular maintenance and the occasional water pump. And of course I helped perpetuate the idea that MBs were worth the $$ because you could get ridiculous mileage out of them. I'm now feeling horrible b/c every Honda, Mazda, Toyota or Nissan I've ever known has gone well beyond 100k miles w/o so much as a new timing belt (and those ain't $700 installed). Yet I'm 98k miles into this 190, am looking at an additional $2-3k+ and I'm seriously considering dumping the car and buying -gasp- an Acura or something.

And according to MB Doc, the 92-93 190 2.6s are supposedly one of the most robust models MB ever designed!

WAAAAAAAAHHHHH! Someone bring me some perspective, if you can! I need it.

That's $6K on a car worth a little more than that right? I am beginning to read alot of , "yeah, its' $4K , but it is a new car now" or "$2K is ok for annual maintainance" . I am beginning to think just making car payments on a new Benz is better than paying for a used one cash, with all this $ that I see being spent on here.

It's funny ...whatever board I go to, everybody says the other mfg
's are no good, but I hadn't heard anyone call the Japanese cars, POS. Especially when posting of $6K in repairs on an MB.

I have always had atleast one Japanese car in the driveway, but would typically trade in 1-2 yrs, so never alot of miles. Except one time when I had an 1981 Toyota Tercel, and got about 160K miles on it with never opening up the motor . It was smashed due to an accident in the back, and it smelled like fuel due to a carb not running right. It was just a carb problem; never fixed it but ran fine; without $1K timing belt replacements or $2K headwork.

My point is that, I am beginning to wonder if all these Mercedes are as good and dependeble as the general public (me for example) perceives. or do we see all these high mileage MB units on the road b/c people are spending thousands annually for maintainance. If so, where is the "my car is better than your car" theory for MB?

Also when I see people recommending used car warranties and AAA, I foresee problems. Don't get me wrong, I AM IN LOVE with the 300E's....but have to think of maintainance $$ or money pit $ .

I have been trying to figure out via the archives how much to budget annually for maintainance and the $1K I was thinking isn't going to cut it , I believe, for a 300E. Even if I budgeted $2K, you get one of these $4k jobs and bamn. BTW, I just saw a 91 300Ce for sale in one of the local papers for $10K, but the guy was advertising "recent $20K in maintainance" Now I am starting to believe the ad

Good luck on your repairs. Credit card companies must love MB owners

Greetings,

I'd like to sum it all up for you in a few words, but I can't, perhaps someone else on this site can. In my perception of Mercedes ownership, now a two Mercedes owner, one a '80 diesel wagon and also a '86 300E I have found problems with both and have fixed most of them on my ride, the 300TD. I am newly familarizing myself with my wifes 300E and made a list and now am in possession of about $400.00 dollars worth of parts (bought on this site I might add) that will pretty much get the major bugs fixed with new parts and running like it ought too. I think the largest expense in any of the repairs or replacements you have mentioned is the labor they are going to charge you for their time and expertise. For those poor folks out there like myself that would love to enjoy the ride these cars have to offer as well as their longevity, you basically have to be willing to do the work yourself to keep from getting buried in labor costs. The parts alone I have purchased to repair mine would cost over two grand in labor to install let alone the jacked up retail they are gonna charge you for the part. I could never concieve of spending four grand on repair costs, the car would become a monument in my front yard first. Granted, you said this was a 190E and like many have said, this was an entry level Mercedes for the guy that didn't have the money for the 200 or 300 series. It's basic economics, you aren't going to get a Camaro at a Chevette price tag regardless of who's manufacturer you decide to purchase from. The other fact, and I'd almost be willing to take a poll on this one is that a person that owns a Benz that cost him used $7,000 will take better care of it than the new pick-up he spent over $25,000 for. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease.
My personal opinion in your case is to either pay the labor if you can't do the work yourself or buy that Acura. You have basically spent more on your last routine repairs than most of us would have given for the car off the lot.
I must admit that since I have owned my Benz's they have a way of letting you know through normal driving that something is either not working right, or just plain broken. It's these whispers from the car with the radio off on the way to work once a week that let's me know that everything is doing fine, or somethings amiss. Need to listen to the car to keep expenses to a minimum and fix what needs fixing when it tells you so.

Charles

Here's the wife's new to her 300E Your repair cost exceed the price of her car.

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__________________
"Tell me and I will listen, Teach me and I will learn, Show me and I will accomplish, Involve me and I will succeed."
'84 300SD 256,000 Gold on Brown (Mileage Award)
'86 300E 246,000 Blue on Tan

makakio:

How bad is your oil consumption? One quart per 1000 mi, per 500 mi? Is there a leak or is it all burned?

The Mercedes designers who designed the 103 (and 104, for that matter) must be stubborn people. They need to learn from these Japanese designers who make 1/2 of these Germans make on how to seal an engine. If you are an owner of a 103 or 104 engine, let me know if you have no leak after 60 kmi. Some people I know of had their head gasket replaced 3 times within 60 kmi. LOL, that is pretty bad, Mercedes. Apparently they could not designer a good gasket. In stead of improving the gasget, they took the approach by replacing when needed.

My 1997 E320 had the head gasket and timing cover (top and bottom) replaced under warranty at around 38 kmi. Now it is at 59k and I start seeing a slight color change in that area again. It is not really seeping yet, but I can see it is coming. If it does come, I will fight to death against Mercedes to get this repair without paying for it.

How often do you change your oil?

I've not been impressed by the 190s -- local mechanic warns people off them, as he says he does far more work on them than he does on the 300s at the same age, similar engine notwithstanding. He thinks MB "cheapened" them to lower the price.

Typical valve job time on the M100 series engines is more like 160,000 miles, more if you use synthetic oil and change it often. Bottom end should last the lifetime of the car, same proviso about oil.

My local MB mechanic says this of MBs -- "they are like Porsches -- maintain them regiously by the book and they run forever. Cheat on maintenance, and they fall apart in a year!"

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

I really have to jump in here and agree with John (blackmercedes). I have owned Japanese cars for 17 years before switching to MBs (Hondas, Acura, Toyota.) All but the Toyota ate me alive in parts and labor after 80-100 k miles. These cars had been treated very well with Mobile 1, and with premium and early service.

By 120k miles, the 1988 Acura was costing me $4800/year average, (not counting tires!) and the glove box was filled with plastic parts that had fallen off various interior locations. There were many design deficiencies - 128 major TSBs on the Acura Legend compared to the 12 on the 1 year older MB (look up the NHTSA TSBs)

The 1984 Toyota has 250k miles on it, but the plastic and upholstery (despite being garaged at night and car covered during the day) are brittle and splitting, and the windows, hatch, and doors rattle, leak air, the body creaks, and the AC whistles because all the foam on the gates is gone, etc. It still looks clean and runs adequately, but is too noisy to bother upgrading the stereo, and would cost a fortune to restore.

The 87 MB doesn't have these problems. The body is tight, there are no noises. Looking at the repair records, the Japanese cars have cost me more per mile than the 300E (The Toyota is close to a tie. Parts on the Acura are 50-100% more than the MB, Toyota parts are 10-25% more than the MB, but the Toy has 3 times the miles, so I can't really compare!!!). There is no wind noise, and the underhood area is not the plumbers nightmare that the Acura presented.

A lot of people talk about oil leaks from their w123 diesels or from w124 300Es. I drive my 300E pretty hard, (as verified by the tire shop doing my tire rotations, and my tech during trans fluid and flex disk changes ) but at 85 k miles compression is perfect, it doesn't use a drop of oil between the 3k change intervals, and there are no spots under the car's parking slot in the garage. My brothers w123 300 diesel leaks zero oil at 180k, and the engine always looks clean. Go Figure!

Finally, my Japanese car mechanic of 15 years has repeatedly warned me for the last 5 years that I should not consider a Japanese car that is newer than 1990 with anywhere close to 100k miles - he says they aren't built to last, and he won't personally buy a new one, just lease for 3-4 years and walk away.

All this said, every car wears out, some faster than others depending on climate, driving style, maintenance frequency, skill of the mechanics, quality of oil and gas used, etc. I PROBABLY wouldn't buy a new MB with the intention of keeping it 15 or 20 years, but I DEFINITELY will not buy a Japanese or American car for long term ownership. If I were leasing a current model year car for the duration of the warranty only, it would be either MB or Lexus, depending on which one I liked best at the time.

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

Makakio,

How close are you to los angeles, or more importantly to my mechanic?

Talk to enrique. He is very reasonable, and does excellent work.

Mr MB Motors
5557 Reseda Boulevard, Tarzana, CA 91356
(818) 708-8086

If you aren't that close to him, someone should be able to recommend a good shop closer to your area.

my brothers 85 380sl, can have the double row timing chains done (before they break of course) for around $500 at enrique. Thats a great price if you ask me.

Alon

__________________
'92 300CE - Sold
2004 C240 - 744 - C7 Wheels - Android Radio
2002 C320 - 816 - Sport Wagon

Makakio,

You never did quantify your oil usage. What is it in miles per quart?

Have a great day,

I am HONESTLY (no troll!) puzzled. On some posts or alot, I read "I am paying $4K for maintainance" or on another "$2K-$3K / yr on mainainance".... then I read that the MB is no problem.

IN order to better understand this issue I priced out some basic parts only (parts I would be able to replace w/o being an MB mechanic or "technician" or having $50K tools ) and compared them to the specific cars I am looking at. Some are in the same class ..some are not.... The parts I priced online were A/C compressor w/reman clutch, water pump, fuel pump (2 for MB, right?), brake rotors (2), & new master cylinder. I am just giving totals for parts only, rememeber.

Vette '94 $620
Honda Accord 4 cyl LX '95 $944
Maxima '97 $1072
Camry LE 4 cyl 96 $1167
Lexus 300ES 93 $1175
MB 300E 92 $1415
VW Passat 95 $1469

So the two German cars are neck and neck in high costs for parts. Not much differnece from the Jap cars, but MORE $$$$ . If this was the typical scenario I would just buy the used 300E I want, but you guys, yourselves keep posting about major (anything over $1K is major to me) problems and just little $1K-$2K bugs.

....Please note, that those cars were picked based on their worth. I am looking to spend $10-$12K on a car, so I think that is a good set of cars to compare. The 300E isn't the top of the line MB, so shouldn't be compared to the 400LS, but the mid line model, the 300ES Lexus.

Your thoughts?

Just replaced the head gasket on my own 260E. It wasn't a difficult job, but took me about ten hours labor, plus stripping and repainting the valve cover.

Would have been less if I knew what I was doing.

I had the valves redone and the head resurfaced at a local head shop while the head was off. That was the big expense at $330, and was probably unnecessary, but...

Anyway, a highly competent home mechanic can do this job. The most difficult part was taking loose the two bracket bolts UNDER the intake manifold.

I found that there are some odd tools that you need:

Head bolt 12 point socket: Auto Zone $13
Chiming Chain tensioner 12MM (?) allen wrench. Just used vise grips on the outside of the tensioner.
Chiming Chain tensioner 17MM allen wrench: Used a 17MM head bolt on the end of Vise Grips.
slide hammer extractor for pin throughtiming chain guide: used a bolt and prybar instead... Wished for the slide hammer.
Socket-wrench driven allen set: 4-10MM. Worth weight in gold.
Sealant for top timing cover: I should have sprung for the good stuff. Auto supply non-hardening sealant HARDENED and it leaks only a week into its new life.

All other tools are off-the-rack Sears Craftsman wrenches and sockets.

Anybody that has done these before but gets $2K for a day and a half's work is making serious profits, unless they are using MB parts and having that head redone, too.

The gasket set bought here was under $60 and included everything. The valve guides and such items were under $50 as I recall.

Good luck regardless.

Yoshimura:

Interesting comparison sheet! Did you compare new factory to new factory, rebuilts, aftermarket, or what, as my experience has been different. (I am physically restrictred from doing most of my own repairs) I just replaced the power window motors on both the MB and the Acura before I sold it. The Acura was almost twice the cost as the MB part (both factory OE). The water pumps were the same story - about 20% more on the Toyota than the MB for Factory OE, over 50% more for the Acura OE. I don't have exact numbers any more as the over 2 1/2" thick stack of records went with the Acura, but I can't do my own repairs, and all prices were for OE new or factory reconditioned parts and were checked through dealers and my independant Techs (no on line prices , but my MB tech and the Toyota/Acura tech are next door to each other in the same building and have the same labor rates.).

The Acura was always more expensive to repair on anything than was the Toyota. And the Acura had CV joints and boots that really ran up the ownership costs compared to the other cars. Outer boots every year, outer joints and inner boots every 2 years, inner joints every 3 years! Plus the FWD really ate tires, pads, and rotors! The Toy was pretty close to the MB. Also, my impression is that the parts (water pumps, power window motors, etc.) seemed to last longer on the MB than the Toy, and on the Toy over the Acura.

Just my experience, better shoppers and DIY people may have had better luck or different pricing experiences. I am not at all unhappy with my Toy, but this was my second negative and pricey experience with Honda products, and there won't be a third try, even though lots of people have good luck with them (Haven't run into many happy early Acura Legend owners, however!).

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

Hmm... for the same MB, using FastLane and PartsShop, I come up with $1,375.00 for the same job. Now I've also factored in doing all 4 wheels for that brake job (including brake pads) AND a NEW Nippandenso compressor rather than rebuilt (but I didn't factor in a new drier, which should be replaced any time you open the system to atmosphere).

The only high dollar item was the compressor.

And yes, doing that much repair in one sitting will have a big parts bill, and an even bigger labor tab if not done DIY

__________________
Mike Tangas
'73 280SEL 4.5 (9/72)- RIP
Only 8,173 units built from 5/71 thru 11/72

'02 CLK320 Cabriolet - wifey's mid-life crisis

2012 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI...at least its a diesel

Non illegitemae carborundum.

I have had my 190E (85, 122K) for exactly 5 years, and have spent a whopping 12.7K on repairs in these 5 years (everything, including transmission, has given up). I got this car for free, so I keep it and maintain it - no way should ANY car, let alone a mercedes, literally disintegrate at 80K miles (that's the mileage when I got the car). And I can easily see spending about 2K in the next 6 months, on some pending jobs!

My opinion - mercs older than 5-6 years should only be owned who can do many of the small repair jobs (at least) themselves. If you need a mechanic for every damn thing, these are BAD vehicles to keep - Toyotas are much more reliable, and I say this after having closely observerd three Camry's with over 250K each. The so called German engineering comes at a steep price tag!

Well said, agupta.

There are more older MB on the road because the owners keep throwing $$ into the pit. Had the Toyato or Honda owners done the same, we would have been flooded by the older Japanese cars.

...we have all experienced makakio's reality as our vehicles wear and age...a car purchased and put together piece by piece by a consumer is far more expensive than having the factory assembly line do it

factories naturally have buying efficiencies, labor efficiencies, tooling efficiencies, machining efficiencies, etc.

I've found that if the vehicle still lights your fire...it often justifies the unreasonable cost/benefit economics associated to keep it together

in other cases, I've come to a point where the current and forecasted financial outlay outweighs the passion for the vehicle at the time ...so selling it appeared to be the correct decision....no matter however, there's always other less needy vehicles and more passion to go around

people also breakdown and need more care as they age....but, we can't realistically get rid of them...I guess some hold cars to a harsher standard...

have a great halloween!

-fad