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  #1  
Old 10-13-2002, 08:56 PM
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Angry Is there an alternative to Bosch fuel management ?

I've had enough of this over complicated piece of crap called Bosch KE III. I have a good car with a strong engine but the Bosch system just doesn't work. Is there an aftermarket fuel management system available? If not, then I can see a small block Ford going under the hood of my 300.
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2002, 09:02 PM
engatwork's Avatar
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Can you adopt the Bosch to the small block Ford Cap'n?
LOL - two words - Edelbrock and Holly .
I'm telling you - you need to pick you up one of those W123's. You'll never be the same again.
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2002, 09:20 PM
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Oh Stephen, please take the car to Steve Brotherton's shop and get this car diagnosed properly just once.

I know you've been trying to self-educate yourself on diagnosing this problem, but I'm not sure that you're sure of what the problem is.

Who knows, it could be a simple fix. It could be a difficult and expensive fix. But, at least you'll know what it is and could decide for yourself whether to fix it or not.
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2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
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1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
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  #4  
Old 10-13-2002, 09:47 PM
Jackd
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A few years ago, I saw a carburator system sold in Europ (I Think they were dual Webers) which was a direct bolt-on to the 103-104 engines
I am sure some good welders around that could fabricate an intake manifold on which you could bolt on a nice Holley mechanical carburator to replace the Bosh mistake.
JackD
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2002, 10:07 PM
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I have thought of carbs also...

I have access to a computerized CNC milling machine that can make the adapter. The Bosch system was probably ok in 89 but it's old hat now. It's too expensive and complex to diaganose and repair so it needs to disappear. If Edlebrock and Holley made parts for this thing it would have them on it!!! I may have to blaze the trail here because I know there are hundreds of you out there that would love to make boat anchors out of this worthless system, including that trademark of stupidity, the "OVP".

Last edited by Cap'n Carageous; 10-14-2002 at 09:01 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2002, 12:33 AM
M D Nugent
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Lightbulb If you want to 'roll yer own'

Consider http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html as a replacement ECU and going back in time to the reliable D-jet electronic injectors (e.g., on a 1972-73 450SL). Of course, if you're subject to CA smog checks, you'd need a blind examiner . . . .

M D "Doc" Nugent
My 350SL (5.6) project
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2002, 06:37 AM
850R
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You can run aftermarket management systems such as MOTEC, Microtech, Wolf 3D. I'm looking at that upgrade too as it improves the throttle response tremendously.
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  #8  
Old 10-14-2002, 07:30 AM
LarryBible
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I completely understand your frustration, I've had that level of frustration before with various machines and systems.

I saw one unemotional post in this thread, and it was the one by suginami.

My KE has been completely trouble free, so I know that there is at least one that works. If you think you are having headaches now, just start doing a serious modification such as those suggested here, then you will have plenty of headaches.

Going to a carburetor would be a giant step backwards IMHO. I am a real fan of the Holly, they are very tunable, but face it, a carburetor is an antique device. Do you think we would have 3,500 pound cars getting over 25 MPG if we were still using carburetors? Not a chance.

Additionally, I believe one of the main reasons we see such good engine longevity these days is fuel injection. Cold weather start ups with a carburetor inevitably dribble raw fuel on the cylinder walls, washing away the much needed oil. Fuel Injection rarely allows this to happen.

I would really encourage you to take it to Brotherton or Donnie for a diagnosis. In the long run, you will be money, time and frustration ahead.

Best of luck,
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2002, 09:11 AM
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Boy, do I agree with Larry on this one.

Stepping all the way back to a bicycle would be the eventual result following the logic here. That logic being that once every part known to man has been tried, get a bicycle.

To me those systems are like working on a bicycle. We seldom have any trouble identifying the problems. The problem trying to help on one of these boards is that the testing we would do, just isn't a possibility in the field.

I understand how frustrating it can be to deal with such problems, we are running into such affairs regularly with the new systems. Proper testing is the answer and with the proper tooling and Experience, it gets to be routine.
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  #10  
Old 10-14-2002, 09:17 AM
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It's a little difficult for me to justify throwing thousands of dollars worth of diagnosis time and ridiculously expensive components into a $3000 car! I have spent more time studying the repair cd and searching for info on this thing than it deserves. I spent the better part of Sunday adjusting the airflow plate and the plunger height. Finally had to jump pins 7 & 8 on the fuel pump relay just to get it to start. Put the relay back in , the car runs 10 seconds and dies. Starts right back up, runs good. Tuck the OVP and fuel pump relays back in their places and it dies. Shortage?? I strip the sheathing from the wiring harness from the CIS-E, OVP and fuel relays all the way to the engine sensors and controls. I check each wire for shorts. All are fine. All relays and CIS-E have been replaced. There is nowhere else to go with this system, except the trash can.
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  #11  
Old 10-14-2002, 10:08 AM
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I know you have had this car discussed on other threads but I just don't remember all the details. The problem as you have just discussed sounds minor. Diagnosis of such a problem in my shop would cost less than $150. Diagnostics and repair only get to the figures you state if one uses parts swapping for diagnostic technique.

We had a 300e in for a no-start last week. One of my oldest techs hooked up to the fuel distributor to watch differential pressure as he was sure the problem was fuel related and the electronics looked good upon testing. He brought me over and showed me that he had zero differential pressure (lower chamber pressure subtracted from upper chamber pressure). Within the next hour or more we tried a new fuel distributor and a new EHA to no effect. The tech was at a loss and I came over to help.

We use two different gauges to get the two readings (unlike the MB book way of getting both readings from one gauge and subtracting). After changing the EHA I decided that I wanted to see if the very small pressure difference between the gauges (no two gauges read exactly the same) corresponded to the appropriate way the pressures should be (one higher than the other). As I followed the lines I realized that he had both gauges hooked to the upper chamber; thus all of our testing was based upon a false conclusion. A couple more minutes of testing produced the real problem: a bad coil.

I mention all this because all testing is based upon hypothesis. Bad testing results in bad hypothesis and no solution. Every wire you looked at had a function. Every wire can be functionally tested. Efficient diagnosis is based upon finding whats missing and hypothesizing on a practical cause that then will be tested. Without direction, one just travels in circles.
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  #12  
Old 10-14-2002, 10:44 AM
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The bicycle may be primitive, but it works! I just sold my 88 Toyota pickup with over 250,000 miles on it. The carb was never touched on it. I had a Datsun that I put over 250,000 mi. on Same deal. My 89 Honda has a carb. It starts perfectly and runs like a top at 150,000. Carbs have propelled cars and trucks for billons of miles. When one does fail you can replace it cheaper than the diagnostic cost on an injector system. I may be a dinosaur but when you get any system so complex that even so called experts have to throw parts at it to diagnose, then in my opinion, you have not progressed.
There are also other fuel management systems out there that are more simple and work just as well. My quest is to find one.
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  #13  
Old 10-14-2002, 10:55 PM
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I just don't know when to give up.....

Three more hours of "going round in circles" on this thing and here's what I found. When you move or "tap" the controller, the engine purrs, so it MUST be the controller, even thugh I've already replaced that! I touch the fuel pump relay and the engine dies. Must be the fuel pump relay then. Start the car again and touch the wire harness to the Klima and it dies. Must be that then. Tug on the wiring harness to the fusebox. It quits again. Now I'm getting somewhere. Remove fusebox and tighten all connections to the fuses and relays. Runs for ten minutes and dies. Go back to controller(CIS-E) and tap it. Car runs perfectly for 10 minutes then dies. What fun. Where do you get those whips that Moslems beat themselves with?? I'd be better off doing that!!
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2002, 09:17 AM
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Stephen,

Though persistant you may be, scientific you are not. What you must address is: what is changing when you do all these activities. Your various actions kill the car. You act as if that is a unique act. You are either stopping the fuel pump or the ignition. The car will live through an EHA failure unless it is getting a mighty powerful wrong signal; which is easy to monitor.

Determining which is the next step. The answer will not jump on you, as you fram around.

I don't know where in Georgia you are, but if the car is driveable I will donate a Saturday to showing you how we would test these items and we WILL figure your car out. We might even throw a part or two at it (all diagnostic tools to evaluate a hyphothesis - we won't replace anything until there is a scientific question to be answered). When we get an answer, you can fix it.

We could even sell tickets, maybe! Anyone else want to fix this beast?
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Continental Imports
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  #15  
Old 10-15-2002, 11:17 AM
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You're a lucky man Carageous.....

CIS-E 101 courtesy of a master tech.

I'd give anything to be in northern Florida.
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