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  #1  
Old 10-27-2003, 10:33 PM
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Location: MA
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your opinion on brake pad and rotor options (W124)

1992 Mercedes 300D 2.5 turbo.

What do you think about aftermarket brake pads and rotors?

First, are they trouble free?
Fully compatible with the floating caliper of W124 diesel, compatible with the brake pad wear sensor, . . . etc.?





prices as of 10/27/2003, USA

[front pad set]

Pro Perform OEM $39 (TireRack)

Texar $42.5 (Fast Lane)
_____ $39.53 (Fast Lane)
Delux PBR $32.91 (Fast Lane)
Metal Master PBR $41.04 (Fast Lane)
Pagid $42.5 (Fast Lane)
ATE $42.5 (Fast Lane)
Jurid $42.5 (Fast Lane)

Pro-ACT Ceramic Japan $61.54 (Fast Lane)

Akebono ProACT Ceramic $71 (TireRack)

EBC Greenstuff $89 (TireRack)




[front rotor]

ATE (plain) $44.93 (Fast Lane)
ATE Power (slotted) $52.76 (Fast Lane)
Zimmerman (drilled) $64.39 (Fast Lane)
Balo (plain) $44.23 (Fast Lane)

Brembo (plain) $56 (TireRack)
EBC Sport Grooved (slot and blind drilled) $93
PowerSlot (slotted) $102 (TireRack)

Last edited by ktlimq; 10-27-2003 at 10:48 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2003, 11:55 PM
azhari
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For what it's worth :

I have ATE discs/JURID pads on the front and just swapped ou the rears for BREMBO discs/TEXSTAR pads.

I noticed that TEXSTAR pads although as soft as JURIDs, dust slightly less.No squeaking since new.

I like the BREMBO/TEXSTAR setup and will do the same for the fronts when they go.

Cheers.
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  #3  
Old 10-28-2003, 12:01 AM
GermanStar's Avatar
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Textar, Jurid, and Pagid are all OEM brake pad suppliers, and ATE is the OEM supplier for brake rotors. The others are aftermarket.

Ron
http://germanstar.net
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  #4  
Old 10-28-2003, 07:49 AM
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC Metro Area
Posts: 365
Balo and PBR Deluxe

I just switched out my pads with PBR Deluxe and am very impressed with the performance (no difference from OEM) and LACK OF DUST! I haven't had to clean my wheels since installing 4 weeks ago. I used to have to clean them every week.

I'd stick with Balo or Brembo rotors. I've heard too many bad things about ATE rotors and their tendency to warp - as well as arriving at minimal thickness right out of the box. Could just be rumor, though.

Troy
1995 E420
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2003, 09:32 AM
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I would like to use MB pad instead of more expensive aftermarket pads.
The information I get is somewhat confusing. DaimlerChrysler and Akebono say seemingly opposite things.


================================================
Talk at BIG 3 BRAKE SYMPOSIUM 2002
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/procut02.htm
by

Larry Carley

Once a year, brake engineers from the "Big 3" domestic auto manufacturers (General Motors, Ford & DaimlerChrysler) get together with tech types from various aftermarket service providers (Firestone, Goodyear, Big O Tire, Car-X, Merlin, Midas, Monro, Sears, Tuffy, Pep Boys, ProCare and others) to discuss brakes. The annual event, which is sponsored by Pro-Cut International, a manufacturer of on-car brake lathes, was held October 22, 2002 in Detroit, Michigan.

The purpose of this event is to allow aftermarket tech trainers to quiz OEM brake engineers about their recommend brake service procedures, new brake designs and any problems they are experiencing in their shops.

Keep in mind that the responses given by the OEM engineers reflect their opinions towards new car dealer warranty service procedures and fixes, not necessary repairs that work for the aftermarket.

Also keep in mind that the responses given by the individual engineers are not necessarily the "official" policy of the vehicle manufacturer they represent. In some cases, they expressed their own personal opinions rather than an "approved" service policy (no lawyers were present).

It's also interesting to note that the engineers from Ford, General Motors and DaimlerChrysler expressed opposite views on several important issues, including procedures for correcting brake pulsation problems caused by rotor lateral runout (GM approves the use of shims but Ford and Chrysler do not), the use of a lubricant or anti-corrosion treatment between the brake rotor and hub (Ford said yes, GM said never), and the use of brake pads that contain ceramic fibers (Ford and GM use them but Chrysler does not).





DAIMLERCHRYSLER PRESENTATION

DaimlerChrysler does NOT recommend installing aftermarket ceramic pads. They say these pads are highly abrasive to rotors and will accelerate wear and magnify roughness. If used on a typical SAE G3000 gray cast iron rotor, they will wear rapidly and create variations in thickness. This will cause a pad vibration (brake judder). Engineers call this "variable brake torque input." Jeep Grand Cherokee has had this kind of problem (see fix below).

Chrysler uses NAO and low-met pads on their vehicles. They want consistent performance. Ceramics are less predictable, so Chrysler is still evaluating ceramic materials.

ROTOR QUALITY?

Chrysler uses damped cast iron. Is better than standard gray iron. But is softer and wears more when aggressive aftermarket pads are installed. Rotor quality and noise characteristics vary a great deal with quality of iron alloy & cooling process. If make rotor alloy harder to extend rotor life, it reduces the rotor's ability to handle heat without heat cracking.








FORD PRESENTATION

WHAT'S NEW IN FRICTION MATERIALS?

Ford has used ceramic (potassium titanite) since 1993. Ceramic fibers improve durability.

"Ceramics" is hard to define. It's like baking cookies. A lot of ingredients go into a friction material and the manufacturer may choose to call it almost anything they want. Calling it a "ceramic" does not define how much ceramic is actually in the pads. It could only be a very small amount or a lot. Pad performance depends on all the ingredients that are in the pads. Same pads could be called NAO, low-metallic, semi-metallic, ceramic, carbon-metallic, you-name-it. It's all how the pad manufacturer wants to market their product. There are no standard industry definitions.

Semi-met pads are improving, and have less tendency to wear rotors and create runout and pedal pulsations.

Someone in audience said a certain brand of aftermarket ceramic pads are running hot, warping rotors. These are "ceramic" pads. They have a higher coefficient of friction which reduces stopping distance, but the wear problems they are creating may more than offset the other advantages these particular pads offer. Ford uses ceramic pads made by Akebono and have NOT experienced similar problems with the Akebono friction materials.


===============================================



Akebono web site

Rotor thickness variation and resulting pedal pulsation are also minimized through Akebono's ceramic technology. Akebono's patented friction material formulations include uniquely shaped ceramic particles that are less abrasive to the rotor surfaces. In addition, Akebono pads tend to contact the rotor in a more adhesive fashion to slow the wheel as compared to semi-metallic and other pads that are much more abrasive, attacking the rotor ad producing significantly more brake dusting. This unique approach reduces rotor wear by as much as 80 percent, thus increasing rotor life by as much as 400 percent versus semi-metallic and other pads.

Last edited by ktlimq; 10-29-2003 at 09:38 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2003, 10:24 AM
JetForeman
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based on my personal experiences with several different brake pads here's what I've concluded:

ATE and Textar: Heavy amounts of dust, tons of initial bite that I don't really care for, makes coming to a smooth stop difficult, very quiet though, have noticed these will warp rotors as quick as any of the others.

EBC Greens: (Currently on my wifes C230) - Liked them at first but they have trashed out the rotors in terms of run-out. No dust to speak of, quiet (although some here have had noise problems), initial bite is much lower than the ATE's or Textars which makes for a much better brake pedal feel. Will be replacing them soon with PBR's.

PBR Deluxe: (Currently on my E320) - Best all around pad I've ever used, no dust, quiet operation, no grabbiness when the brake pedal is first depressed, nice smooth overall brake feel though, rotors are true and stay that way no matter how hard I use them (huge plus there), will be installing them on my wifes car as soon as I get a new set of front rotors for it.

Note that some people here like the initial bite that the ATE's and Textars have, me personally though I don't like grabby brakes much less ones that leave my wheels black after only going to the store.

Hope this helps.
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2003, 02:11 PM
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PBR Deluxe pads on our E320 wagon and our 328i, stock rotors. NO problems-- excessive wear, etc... Almost zero dust at all times.

Not very expensive at all.
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2003, 09:25 PM
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Location: Joliet Illinois
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PBR's for me

I have not replaced the brake pads on my Mercedes yet but when I do it will be with PBR.

I have always used PBR's on my Volvo's and they are dust-free and do not wear out the rotors like most metallic pads. I racked up 270k miles on a '75 Volvo and it still had the original rotors. The pads of course won't last that long but I would much rather replace pads than rotors.

The only down-side is that I believe they contain asbestos but I think that is also what makes them perform better.

John
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2003, 09:56 PM
Ali Al-Chalabi's Avatar
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I personally prefer the performance of OEM pads.

However, I would give a word of caution against some of those PBR pads. Some of them may have asbestos, which obviously is not good. That dust gets everywhere, do not use pads that conatain asbestos. Your health is not worth sacrificing.
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  #10  
Old 10-30-2003, 11:11 PM
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ktlimg

Thanks for sharing this information.
Here I thought I knew a little bit about brakes.
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  #11  
Old 10-30-2003, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ali Al-Chalabi

However, I would give a word of caution against some of those PBR pads. Some of them may have asbestos, which obviously is not good. That dust gets everywhere, do not use pads that conatain asbestos. Your health is not worth sacrificing.
Asbestos has been outlawed from friction materials sold in the US for at least 15 years.

On the other hand, I don't think any of our grandparents or parents died from driving cars with asbestos based brake shoes/pads used from the early 1900s to the eighties.

The asbestos health hazard was to those who worked in manufacturing operations that included asbestos as a part of the product.

Duke
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2003, 03:52 PM
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Yes, of course asbestos has been banned in the US from friction materials. However, some members have reported getting some types of PBR pads with a warning on the box that they contain asbestos. PBR is not an OEM company and they are not manufactured in the US. I would not use any pads that contained asbestos on my car. Most of the PBR pads are asbestos free, but a select few might not be, I would be sure before I used them.

I refer you to the following thread. If you scroll down a little you will see a discussion on some PBR pads containing asbestos.

Axxis Metal Master & EBC Brake Pads

That is just my 2 cents. You are, of course, free to use whatever you want.
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2003, 05:17 AM
Newbie Benz Driver
 
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Location: Between Oakland and Vallejo, CA
Posts: 253
Quote:
Originally posted by Ali Al-Chalabi
Yes, of course asbestos has been banned in the US from friction materials. However, some members have reported getting some types of PBR pads with a warning on the box that they contain asbestos. PBR is not an OEM company and they are not manufactured in the US. I would not use any pads that contained asbestos on my car. Most of the PBR pads are asbestos free, but a select few might not be, I would be sure before I used them.
.
i know the last set of PBRs for my Toyota Cressida are asbestos-based. I bought a set of PBRs for my mom's 380SL, and she is complaining about poor braking, so i going back to OE-box Textar and Pagid pads from Fastlane.
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2003, 07:29 PM
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I can't imagine using anything but PBR Deluxe - it's just the best of all worlds - dust, noise, price.
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