717.412 (5 speed manual gearbox) refresh - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Stretch · #46 09-01-2013, 09:27 AM

To check the combined main shaft and input clearance you can get a pretty good idea by leaving that little spring out again - fitting the two shafts together just like you did above but this time temporarily fitting them to the casing and then fitting the intermediate plate (much like you did for the lay shaft - remove the lay shaft for this though).

With that spring removed you can pull up and down on the main shaft.

The downside is that it is harder - when working as a one man band - to measure this end float as the input shaft could be flapping about below.

I assumed that the input shaft was sitting as it should - that its weight was holding the tapered roller bearing up against the bearing cup in the front cover. This is an assumption though - so watch out if you too want to do it this way.

I consistently managed to measured an end float of 0.04 mm - not bad considering the method used.

With that evil little spring back in place I'm quite certain that there'll be no sloshing about between the bearing cups anyway...

Stretch · #47 09-01-2013, 09:38 AM

Last thing you might want to consider is the cap on the speedometer drive. This meant to be pushed into the casing so that the gap between the speedometer drive and the casing is 0.5 mm

Note Haynes says 5 mm (!!!! => typical!)

My gap is 1 mm

I'm not sure if I can be bothered to set it again - it will probably leak if I do.

Also I'm going to take the tail cone off of the 4 speed gear box I've got just to see if the speedo parts are different 'cos the W201.018 has different differentials for 4 speed and 5 speed transmission. So this job might not be necessary in my case anyway...

Stretch · #48 09-08-2013, 04:14 AM

Update.

Progress is slow. I was informed by the dealer that the shims for gearboxes are pretty expensive (I need one for the lay shaft) so I went off on a tangent taking the 4 speed gearbox that was originally fitted to the 190E to bits. I was hoping to find some shims that would do. Unfortunately the 4 speed gearbox has deep groove ball bearings and no shims on the lay shaft...

...so back to the dealer to ask for the shim I went. Scrunched up eyes and half closed ears - waiting for the kick in the dangly bits - one euro eighty plus tax!

Spares man at the dealer has updated the MB VIN records for the car saying that a 717.412 is now fitted though.

Part gets here on Tuesday. With good weather and a stress free week I hope to have time to finish off this project.

{Got to get the car back together soon - I'm getting fed up with car parts all over the place}

Stretch · #49 09-12-2013, 12:12 PM

...I got the new shim from the dealer - part 202 263 04 52 => 0.9mm shim which replaced the other ones for the lay shaft in the front cap to give a clearance that is back to the 0.05mm spec (see previous posts for data).

You can no longer feel any shaft movement between the bearing cups with the intermediate plate fitted but the bearings spin freely!

Because of the evidence of bearing cups spinning in the casing

I'm using a glue to hold them in place.

I knocked out the bearing cups again - well lifted them most of the way out with my fingers - and then set to work sealing the front cover.

You are meant to use a jointing compound (that I don't have) to make the screw threads leak proof. For the sake of all things German I decided to use Permatex Black RTV and just get on with my life (and stop this incessant shopping).

Wipe off the excess on both sides of the cover (whether you use the correct stuff or the RTV or what ever you choose)

EDIT - guess who forgot a bit?

Put this on as well!

Don't forget the shims. They can be installed when the cover has been fitted...

If you are doing this by the book the bearing cups and shims would already be in place. What I'm showing here is potentially a little dodgy but I think I'm making a suitable compromise between leaving the cups as they are and doing a proper job. If anyone revisits these bearing cups after me they might need to use a hydraulic press to get the cups out but other than that hopefully my choice of using glue now won't cause too much trouble...

...this is not advisable - once these cups are glued in place the distance between the cups is fixed - you can no longer adjust with shims (unless you strip the cups out again of course)

After applying a continuous thin bead of glue around the bearing cup I made sure the bearing cups were seated in the correct position on top of the shims <= you don't want to mess that up!

I'm leaving them over night to set before I start oiling up the inside of the gearbox and start putting the shafts back in.

Stretch · #50 09-14-2013, 08:45 AM

Well I tried to think ahead. I took some of my old 4 speed gearbox to bits to see if I could swap over the speedometer drive parts so when I fit the 5 speed to the 190E with the differential for the 4 speed box all will be good on the gauge.

The tail cone sections / end sections are very different =>

You can see on the 716.217 tail cone - that's the one on the left - that the cog on the output shaft is bigger and the drive for the speedo cable is about 1mm smaller in diameter than the 717.412 tail cone - which is on the right.

So if you hear of a "swap the tail cone" suggestion - jump all over the bugger who said that!

Next step - was to think OK fit the cogs from one casing in the other =>

...as you can see they are of different thicknesses...

...so I had visions of making spacers to fit the difference in width. Luckily I didn't go off on that tangent for too long. The biggest problem is the diameter of the larger 716.216 shaft cog - it doesn't fit in the 717.412 casing =>

So that's that.

I'll have to have an external adjustment thingumyjig to correct for the 4 speed diff on my W201.

SuperCow · #51 09-14-2013, 12:15 PM

Why would you want to change the speedo gears?

Is measuring the output shaft right?
So then only your dif en wheelsize matters?

Only if Mercedes would use different gearing in de speedogears?

So i would figure if you only change the gearbox but not the dif, you don't need a other speedometer. If you change the dif aswell, then you need a other speedometer

(btw you do need a longer speedocable, the 4-speed doesn't fit)

Stretch · #52 09-14-2013, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCow

Why would you want to change the speedo gears?

Is measuring the output shaft right?
So then only your dif en wheelsize matters?

Only if Mercedes would use different gearing in de speedogears?

So i would figure if you only change the gearbox but not the dif, you don't need a other speedometer. If you change the dif aswell, then you need a other speedometer

(btw you do need a longer speedocable, the 4-speed doesn't fit)

The gearing of the speedometer is fixed at the gearbox but it is "geared" for a specific differential ratio (and a standard set of tyres on a standard set of wheels). Change the size of the wheels and you'll change the output seen at the needle on the gauge.

Change the differential - which is essentially what I'm doing as far as the gearbox is concerned - and you'll see a much bigger change than swapping tyre sizes. [Unless you've put a 5 ft lift on the suspension and a set of tractor wheels!]

The five speed gearbox expects to "see" a 3.64 differential. I have a 3.46 fitted which is correct for the 4 speed.

Stretch · #53 09-14-2013, 12:40 PM

Despite forgetting a bit (see above for an edit) despite bad weather - rain did not stop play - the gearbox is now back together.

I struggled with the Haynes manual a bit - read the FSM a bit but ended up doing it my own way (well a bit my own way). Once I've worked out what all those bits are called I'll write up a description showing what I've done did...

Mölyapina · #54 09-14-2013, 01:14 PM

I think DeliveryValve had a thread about adjusting the speedo to different differentials by messing with the spring... here it is.

Stretch · #55 09-14-2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jooseppi Luna

I think DeliveryValve had a thread about adjusting the speedo to different differentials by messing with the spring... here it is.

Thanks this is what I'll probably have to do

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/3024113-post13.html

SuperCow · #56 09-14-2013, 03:29 PM

I'm pretty sure with the W201 model the speedo-gearing in the transmission is the same(even for automatic).
So if your using the same dif/wheelsize, your fine.

Its the speedometer that is different, having a K number. (For the W201 1.8 there 7 different odo meters (not counting the miles version))
Howto speedometer: 190Rev.net - Discussion for Mercedes-Benz 190E W201 Performance, Parts, Tuning and more

Stretch · #57 09-15-2013, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCow

I'm pretty sure with the W201 model the speedo-gearing in the transmission is the same(even for automatic).
So if your using the same dif/wheelsize, your fine.

Its the speedometer that is different, having a K number. (For the W201 1.8 there 7 different odo meters (not counting the miles version))
Howto speedometer: 190Rev.net - Discussion for Mercedes-Benz 190E W201 Performance, Parts, Tuning and more

Well we'll see.

I'll look into that - German SPOB seem to suggest that the speedometers are all the same for petrol engined cars - I need to grab some part numbers to be sure I guess.

Stretch · #58 09-15-2013, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCow

Why would you want to change the speedo gears?

Is measuring the output shaft right?
So then only your dif en wheelsize matters?

Only if Mercedes would use different gearing in de speedogears?

So i would figure if you only change the gearbox but not the dif, you don't need a other speedometer. If you change the dif aswell, then you need a other speedometer

(btw you do need a longer speedocable, the 4-speed doesn't fit)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCow

I'm pretty sure with the W201 model the speedo-gearing in the transmission is the same(even for automatic).
So if your using the same dif/wheelsize, your fine.

Its the speedometer that is different, having a K number. (For the W201 1.8 there 7 different odo meters (not counting the miles version))
Howto speedometer: 190Rev.net - Discussion for Mercedes-Benz 190E W201 Performance, Parts, Tuning and more

You are correct - I stand (and sometimes sit) corrected.

I did a bit of hunting about for data but I can't find the speedometer part numbers just yet. The gearing of a worm drive is given here =>

Worm Gears

In both the 4 speed gearbox and the 5 speed gearbox the helical gear on the output shaft has 6 starting threads. The cog on the cable drive has 15 teeth.

Using relationship on the roymech site linked above Rg = 15 / 6 = 2.5

Stretch · #59 09-28-2013, 02:16 PM

It's about time I got this thread finished the gearbox has been ready for nearly two weeks now.

Please note this isn't a full step by step DIY. I'm showing the main bits that I did in reassembling the gearbox. I didn't take the parts off of either the lay shaft or the main shaft – I figured the gearbox was in OK enough shape for me to take a risk and just bung it back together. Hopefully you won't be seeing an addendum!

Here are some names of the parts that will help in a bit

A – input shaft
B – 3rd / 4th gear synchro hub
C – 3rd gear
D – main shaft
E – lay shaft
F – Intermediate plate
G – 3rd / 4th gear shift lever
H – sliding reverse gear
I – 1st / 2nd gear shift lever
J – 5th / reverse gear shift lever
K – 5th gear synchro hub
L – 5th gear

As I mentioned earlier I've glued in the bearing cups in this transmission. 'Cos I've been messing about with other stuff there's been plenty of time for the glue to set before I start lubricating bearing surfaces with new ATF.

With the gearbox case front end down and rear end up you can start the reassembly.

Fit the 3rd gear 4th gear synchro to the input shaft.

Don't forget the spring and washers and shims and the bearings

Lightly lubricate the front seal for the input shaft with ATF and fit the input shaft and the 3rd gear / 4th gear shift mechanism.