That might apply if he was legally emancipated from his parents....otherwise I would bet the parents are legally responible for him and his actions.

Indigent being the key words......you have to be dirt poor to qualify as indigent.

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

You may be right there. However, I still maintain that is sends the wrong message if the mother tries to help him out. Let the court send them the bill and then make the kid pay for it if they had to. You sending him with a good defense when he goes to court only tells him that you are backing him up in his screw up.

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I agree with the point you are making......as to making the kid pony up for the costs.....but sending him in with no defense is going to be a bad thing as then he is in deep do-do.

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

He will have a defense as mandated by the law. However, there is a difference between Johnny C and Mr Pubic Defender. So what if he is in deep do-do? He had one warning in the probation and he couldn't wait to get out of probation to screw up again? If it were my kid, I would hand him the letter and say "good luck to you." and if he does get into jail, well, a soap on a rope.

A friend of mine got into trouble again and again. One time, he got a felony. Dad didn't bail him out. He got shafted by the law. Dad visited him but wouldn't lift a finger in spite of the judge saying words to the effect "You can afford a good defense. Aren't you going to help him out?" Dad just shrugged his shoulders and let the law give him 6 yrs for joyriding a boat with consideration to previous offenses. Guy got out of jail a different man. Realized he was an alcoholic, sobered up without the 12 step dance and made something of himself.

If nothing else, these things make me realize how lucky I am. Originally I though it would be cool to be a parent. Took a good hard look at the kids around and decided not to be one. At this date, I have no regrets. We are the parents of 4 dogs instead of human children. We took that decisions because we realized that the mindfux have too much control of how we raise a child. I suppose that if the mindfux were to just disappear and their tripe vanish, we would have gone a different route but I have no intentions of raising a kid in any way besides the way I see fit.

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While trying to keep within the rules I do agree with what you say.........too many kids are growing up with entitlement mentality and not taught there are consequences for their actions............then eventualy they find themselves in deep do-do adn don't understand why.

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

And who gives them this stupid idea?

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I could go into that but it would get me banned.......

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

To Plantman:

I would let a qualified proffesional i.e. a psychiatrist decide whether your son suffers from depression or not. Suicidal feelings are an indication that something is wrong (and that someone wants help) whether they are carried to fruition or not. It would probably be a good idea because your son is going to probably be a lot more open about what they are thinking and feeling with a stranger than with someone they don't want to dissapoint. A pattern of sneaking around (because one is mortified of being found out) and doing drugs/alchohol are definitely a way of "coping". The stealing bit is obviously something that should be fleshed out. It sounds like your kid is fairly bright and well behaved other than this recent bout so something was up. Being bright in and of itself can pose a unique set of challenges because a person like this can be very painfully aware of how they screwed up. Reacting to rules and punishment in the manner that you described indicates a lot more than your typical rebellion or ploy for mercy (although it is obviously that too). It is a roadblock that your son has erected so that you have to prove that that you care. This is not about shielding someone entirely from the natural results of their actions but using it as a learning experience rather than a life ruining experience. If you are younger than 18 the law does not treat you like an adult because this is the time that people get to make mistakes and be somewhat shielded from the consequences and it is up to the parent to decide what is the appropriate penalty (sometimes through allowing the natural consequences to occur, sometimes by administering punishment). Twenty years from now when your son is a Dr. you will laugh about this. I wish you the best of luck!

I really agree with the guy from Canada. I have never been to high school (I went to college after the 9nth grade) but they are very much like prisons. Just walking through them I felt myself becoming incredibly rebellious and insulted at being treated like a criminal. I think that if you treat people like they have commited a crime then the feeling inspired is that you might as well do something to deserve your punishment.

I find it interesting how people can be so resistant to the reason that they feel the way that they do. AKLIM you are obviously bitter about the way that your parents treated you. I understand that. It sounds like your family were parochial *******s. They should have taken care of you at 16 and accepted more responsibility instead of leaving you out to dry. I grew up in a very strict harsh environment and I once had the same opinions that you do but then I turned 12 and I learned to be more observant. Learn to observe and not judge. Really good people are capable of making stupid/unoptimal choices but if it hurts no one but themselves then it is their right. There are few things worse for psychological development than the peon military mindset that you are encouraging. Note I say peon because this attitude is never encouraged among leading officers who are required to use their intelligence to solve problems in innovative ways. The consequences of a "perfect" life as you might describe it are disastrous. Unhappiness, banality, and an inability to use one's talents to their greatest potential are the result. It is so predictable that you would ridicule suicidal feelings. You've felt that way before, you are ashamed of it, and this is how you cope. You've fooled psychologists and psychiatrists! Congratulations the only person that you've hurt is yourself and your family. Learn to forgive, explore, and accept yourself. Go see a shrink and this time accept that you like everyone else have issues and that yours are not so terrible that they cannot be explored and amended. Certain personalities atrophy without obstacles and need a challenge in order to thrive and that is good but parents still need to take care of their children.

There was a case a while back where the woman was told by god to rock her kids. 2 died and one is brain damaged. 2 of those "professionals" you speak of said that she was insane and 2 said she was sane. Hmmmmm. Or 20 years from now, his son could be a criminal or on a slab of a morgue. Works both ways too. He was doing a magic show. He presents something that will get his attention of his parents so he can slide out of punishment. Go read the posts that he made.

Obviously I am NOT bitter. My dad taught me a valuable lesson. Thanks to that and the swattings on my rear, I am what I am instead of being a high school dropout and a thug or worse. Yes, he cared about me and sometimes, the hardest thing for a parent to do is to discipline their child. But, that is the job description. The let me hang out and dry because I didn't want to listen. Getting into trouble and having to extract myself out made me realize that I didn't want to be in that sort of trouble. Knowing how hard it was to get myself out, I made up my mind that I should stay out of that sort of trouble. My friend that I might have mentioned had a father that did that and he too turned out better for it. I fooled a mindfuk because I didn't want to take the mandatory art classes. I made them think it was causing more harm than good. It freed up my time to do things that I was more interested in and could excel in instead of what I really didn't like and knew I wouldn't use. But it was a good mental exercise for me. When they can convince me that what they practice is a real science, I'll believe it. Other than that, to me it is just a SWAG at best and an excuse for when you are in trouble. Yes, parents need to take care of their children. HOWEVER, that does not mean that common sense goes out the window. You cannot bail the person out of trouble everytime or where would the education be? All you are doing is reinforcing the idea that "You break it, I;ll fix it". What will happen when you die? Will you be able to bail them out from the grave too? I accept myself and realize we all have problems. I can amend them as necessary. I don't have the money to see 10000 shrinks so I can find the right opinion because that is what it will take. Even if I saw 100 shrinks, I will get a bunch of different opinions, solutions and causes. If I fixed your car like a mindfuk "helps" people, I think you will have a different attitude. There are so many factors they will not be able to nail them all down to achieve any sort of consistency in diagnosis, treatment and cause.

I don't redicule suicide feelings. I don't care for Attention Whores. If there are genuine issues, I am willing to sit with you and work it out. If you are trying to get attention then you can continue with your "attempt" and leave me out. In this case, the kid was just trying to pull at the parent's heartstrings so they go easy on him. That gets the AW stamp from me. Let me ask you this, how many people do you know that say they will commit suicide and actually do it vs those that do it without telling a soul? Discount those that try to get attention and accidently end up killing themselves.

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Being sad or down at times is normal. Wanting attention from other people is also normal. When someone does not get the attention or care that they feel they need they escalate this signal. The problem is that in modern society people tend to not notice because they are more isolated and not as dependent on each other. Depression, suicidal tendencies, etc. are just a highly amplified signal to other people saying that they need attention and should be taken seriously not ridiculed. Even if that person doesn't go through with it they are still miserable and need help. I think that it is important to realize that people in this situation need a whole lot of attention before whatever underlying reason why they are so needy is discovered. The important question to ask is, "Why is someone an AW (to use your derogatory term)?" If you approach this out of inquisitiveness with out thinking something derogatory about the person then you will learn that there are many answers for each case. A psychiatrist or therapist can then explore with that person the underlying reasons (which they cannot realize alone because they are not even conscious of them) and hopefully allow that person to “exorcise” this hidden demon and change the manifestation i.e. stop being so needy. If you don't then you will be ignorant and come up with the conclusion that they are just an annoying AW (which you already knew) and they just need a good swat on the ass (which is not a very original idea). This might make them less annoying temporarily but it still leaves them stunted as a person and actually makes the problem worse later down the road when they are forced to confront these issues again. Like I said before it is better for people to inquire with an open non-judgmental attitude (which many people are not capable of) and if the person indicates that they have had suicidal thoughts to take them to a professional. There are stages of depression where suicide is more a fantasy than anything concrete or executable but it is still a symptom of a much larger problem. People can work any system but that is insignificant compared to the many people that need help.

I am not saying that parents shouldn't discipline their children but I am also not impressed with traditional methods either (although there are components that are effective). Like I said before:

"If you are younger than 18 the law does not treat you like an adult because this is the time that people get to make mistakes and be somewhat shielded from the consequences and it is up to the parent to decide what is the appropriate penalty (sometimes through allowing the natural consequences to occur, sometimes by administering punishment)."

There is a tradeoff in everything and if you think about it the "perfectly behaved" moralist societies on this planet are 1. not very productive and 2. a terrible place to live 4. backwards and unsophisticed and 3. by more evolved standards not very perfect or moral.

Being sad and depressed is normal when it is an off and on thing. Sure, there are times where we are upset at something or the other. However threatening suicide to get attention is like a child throwing a tantrum when he/she cannot get Mom to buy the latest GI Joe or Barbie toy they see in the store. What I am talking about are those that cry suicide whenever there is trouble to deflect the wrath of the parents. "Dad is upset at the window break. I shouldn't have been playing ball inside. Ok, tell dad I am thinking of killing myself and he will be distracted long enough to forget the whole thing and I'll get off easy". Sorry, too coincidental when they pull that stunt. If they have otherwise been happy and fine and now they are in trouble and they pull the suicide routine to distract me, THAT is an AW at work. That is my signal to hand them a copy of "The Final Exit" and say "Knock yourself out. First we will settel the matter of the broken window." I'll bet that if you punish first and send them for so called "professional help" they wouldn't bother with it. Look at Michael Fay. Got into trouble and used the classic American Defense "I have (insert mental illness) which explains why I did this, that or the other". Singapore swatted him on the butt and then released him to see "professional help". Last I heard, he went back to Ohio and almost blew himself up freebasing cocaine. Now, if the kid was serious about getting help like those you suggest, fine. Lets see if he is still wanting it if it doesn't buy him any leniency. That will be a true test, won't it?

Now, if I notice my kid being depressed and stuff like that when he/she is not in trouble, I will sit him/her down and have a good talk. Like I already know, I can manuplate the mindfux when I was a teen so why should I believe them? Also why should I believe them when a bunch of them can come up with a bunch of different opinions? What would you say if you brought your benz to a dealership with 10 techs and all of them had different reasons for what was wrong and they would fix it and change their mind as to how to fix it midstream? They will say that there are many variables to the human mind. Well, if that is true, how do we know you have nailed it down better than the mindfuk behind Door #2? or #3?

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kids need direction. and discipline.

but most importantly consequences. im coming late to the discussion,but i believe that giving kids a choice and a consequence for that choice (and living with it, not havnig parents interfering after they make a bad decision) is one of the best ways to teach them to think through their actions.

it certainly worked for me.
i remember my dad saying to my brother and i (twins) that he was not going to pay damages (african custom; restitution to the family of the pregnant girl who is no longer "pure and virginial") or raise/ support our children if we were to get any girls pregnant. he said we would have to drop out of school, get a job and do it ourselves. we must have been thirteen or thereabouts at the time.

at another juncture in about the same time period, vis a vis drugs and alcohol (or its aftereffects), he said "i am not going to bail anybody out of jail and when and if you do get out dont bother coming back to my house, because if you are old enough to be getting arrested and charged for those things, then perhaps you have grown up quicker than i thought. you can go out and be a man and do all the things you want to do"

he has a way of speaking cryptically like that, but making his thoughts clearly known.
what gave gravity to those words was his history of following through on what he said.

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I agree w/cscmc1, let him be in custody for a couple then when he returns let the police violate HIS space not you. Then, advise against military school......know of a couple of survivors of that trip,deep resentment of the whole groove. After the dust settles and it will, BE THERE for your kid let him discover the ultimate "gang" is his/her family. Da King

Hey Plantman,
I'm coming in on this late too but I think I can offer some advice from experience.
I started out smoking pot in High School (cigarettes too). Mostly from peer pressure, maybe a little lack of self esteem too. That quickly graduated to other stuff, mainly alcohol at first. Then other drugs. I'm not going to name them all but I did a lot. I wound up getting help and getting into recovery. But I still have battle scars from those days namely a lost college education, failed marriage, lack of social skills. But the people who didn't make it into recovery 90% of them are dead. Yes you read it right DEAD, as in buried in the ground.
If you think this is going to stop with pot your seriously mistaken. And I agree that he should be professionally evaluated but it sounds to me like he's playing you like a fiddle. I know, I did the exact same thing with my parents. YOU are the adult and the parent. You should not be wworried about hurting his feelings. He needs guidance with love from you. You can worry about being friends later.
YOu need to know where your son is at all times. You also need to know who he's with and what he's doing. If this means he has to check in every hour or two so be it. If he says he can't get him a cell phone.
I have a friend who's son checks in with her every hour by phone when he's out at night. If he doesn't call she does. I found this to be kind of extreme but she says all the mothers do it. And if he doesn't he's in trouble. My favorite punishment is removing the bedroom door.
My advice to you would be "Get on him!" and don't let up. Don't take the "I'm going to sit back and see what happens" attitude. You already tried that, it doesn't work.
I wish you luck, it's not going to be easy.

Danny

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I just saw this thread today and so I was wondering how your son is doing now. I went through a lot of really rough times when I was that age. I got into drugs, go arrested, addicted, etc. When I turned 19, I went through a Christian drug rehab program called Teen Challenge. It turned my life around completely. That was 33 years ago. Life has been pretty good since then.

Unfortunately, I made life a living hell for my parents for several years before things turned around. I wish you well in your efforts with your son. I can't be easy to go through what you're going through. Good luck.

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