Where's the outrage? - Page 13 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Graplr · #**181** 11-23-2011, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Then what would be an acceptable way for the police to have removed the peaceful protest from the premises?

When you break the law, you have to be willing to suffer the consequences. The line is drawn exactly the way we've seen it in this thread. You resist the officers order to relocate, you get sprayed. Just like if you resist pulling over when the red and blue come on in the rear view, you have a GLOCK 17 pointed in your face and forceful removal from the car. Your analogy was a joke.

The simple way would have been to arrest them.

I didn't see any one of the students resisting arrest, did you? I didn't see a police officer try to arrest them, did you?

The analogy was put in place because Larry was strongly against these students for breaking the law. In post 96 he states there are "so many people in this country that feel the law is not to be obeyed". I simply brought in a law he more than likely has broken to put it into perspective. Would it be okay to pepper spray anyone that has broken the law? As the police officers did here?

If you don't think that the pepper spraying was excessive, then we have nothing to discuss.

aklim · #**182** 11-23-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graplr

I didn't see any one of the students resisting arrest, did you? I didn't see a police officer try to arrest them, did you?

The analogy was put in place because Larry was strongly against these students for breaking the law. In post 96 he states there are "so many people in this country that feel the law is not to be obeyed". I simply brought in a law he more than likely has broken to put it into perspective. Would it be okay to pepper spray anyone that has broken the law? As the police officers did here?

If you don't think that the pepper spraying was excessive, then we have nothing to discuss.

So your thesis is that the cop simply walked up to them and sprayed them with NO orders to move, stand up, etc, etc? Really? Somehow I doubt that but if that is true, you have a point.

Wrong analogy. How about this one. Cop pulls you over, asks for DL and you refuse. Tell him to go fawk himself, you have no right, he is picking on you because you are black, etc, etc and he sprays you and gets you out of the car.

Not in this case, I don't. That is, unless there was no refusal to obey a legal order.

tjts1 · #**183** 11-23-2011, 07:27 PM

t walgamuth · #**184** 11-23-2011, 08:21 PM

The errant cop saw a bunch of reprobates and sprayed the ***** out of them.

The University president saw a bunch of her tuition paying customers getting the rough treatment from the people who are there to protect the customers.

Guess who won?

Would you want to send your kid a place where they get pepper sprayed while demonstrating peacefully?

aklim · #**185** 11-23-2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Would you want to send your kid a place where they get pepper sprayed while demonstrating peacefully?

Of course not. But if my kid did what they did, I'd have NO issue with it whatsoever and when he comes home, I'd hose him off before letting him sit on the furniture.

It is one thing to tell the boss you deserve a raise. Quite another to make camp in his office and demand he listen to your demands for a raise. One case, I'd listen to. The other, I'd fire.

MTUpower · #**186** 11-23-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Yes, I do. If the protestors were "resisting arrest" it creates a risk of harm to the officers, and reasonable force is justified to prevent injury. Where was the "risk of injury" to the LEO at the campus scene? Further, where are the circumstances that would warrant any use of force, certainly non-lethal, by the LEO? Was property at risk or physical harm to others imminent?

An apparently poorly trained officer made a bad decision at the scene of a peaceful demonstration, that's what I see. It's not much different that the actions of Inspector Anthony Bologna (yes, I think that's his real name) who pepper sprayed a group of women at OWS in NYC, when they were confined to a police holding area.

Aklim, still no position on whether the students were being placed under arrest and resisting? No comment about the police objective?

What was the better path for removing them? We've covered this and you ignored the most important question. How do you know there was not a risk of injury to the LEO? Circumstances are simple- they are breaking the law and were asked to move so they would not be breaking the law. They refused. The best path we have seen - non lethal force which causes temporary discomfort.
The complainers need to quit crying about temporary discomfort of law breakers.

Honus · #**187** 11-24-2011, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

What was the better path for removing them?

I have no training in crowd control, so I can't answer that question, but I assume that the best way to remove the protesters is the same way other police forces remove protesters. AFAIK, they don't use pepper spray in the manner the UC Davis cop did. Am I mistaken about that? Are you suggesting that his method was consistent with accepted police practices?

Quote:

...Circumstances are simple...

No way. It was not a simple situation at all.

Quote:

...The best path we have seen - non lethal force which causes temporary discomfort...

Do you have any references to cite that say the it is the best method or that it only causes temporary discomfort? Or are they just your opinions? If they are just your opinions, then I think we have a tie because my opinion goes against yours on both points.

For example: [Pepper spray injuries of the anterio... [Klin Monbl Augenheilkd. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

aklim · #**188** 11-24-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

I have no training in crowd control, so I can't answer that question, but I assume that the best way to remove the protesters is the same way other police forces remove protesters. AFAIK, they don't use pepper spray in the manner the UC Davis cop did. Am I mistaken about that? Are you suggesting that his method was consistent with accepted police practices?

For example: [Pepper spray injuries of the anterio... [Klin Monbl Augenheilkd. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

Made it much easier to remove some clown when their instincts are kicking in as opposed to them chaining themselves to each other. So yes, it is better and poses less risk and speeds the process for the LEO

Even that article is not conclusive and it only cites a couple of cases not a huge number

Solid Snake · #**189** 11-24-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

The errant cop saw a bunch of reprobates and sprayed the ***** out of them.

The University president saw a bunch of her tuition paying customers getting the rough treatment from the people who are there to protect the customers.

Guess who won?

Would you want to send your kid a place where they get pepper sprayed while demonstrating peacefully?

I would hope that I taught my kid better than to protest something he has no clue about. At 22 years old max as an undergraduate, I'd like to say s/he wouldn't have a slightest clue about how business works. But if s/he were intellectual enough to protest the 1%, without business know-how, then I hope they get intimate with the business end of a spray bottle.

I ain't raising a bleeding heart.

spdrun · #**190** 11-24-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

I would hope that I taught my kid better than to protest something he has no clue about. At 22 years old max as an undergraduate, I'd like to say s/he wouldn't have a slightest clue about how business works. But if s/he were intellectual enough to protest the 1%, without business know-how, then I hope they get intimate with the business end of a spray bottle.

How do you know? I was earning $25/hr in the summer in college, freelance tutoring and doing tech for a small business. Those who say that students don't have a clue about business haven't met a lot of college students.

If you really hope that your child gets subjected to gratuitous violence by some rent-a-pig, I really hope that you don't breed. That's the most disgusting thing that I've read today.

MTUpower · #**191** 11-24-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

I have no training in crowd control, so I can't answer that question, but I assume that the best way to remove the protesters is the same way other police forces remove protesters. AFAIK, they don't use pepper spray in the manner the UC Davis cop did. Am I mistaken about that? Are you suggesting that his method was consistent with accepted police practices? No way.

I'm not a specialist in crowd control either, and assuming here does not help much. I know non lethal force which causes temporary discomfort is an option- the most common is tear gas. Pepper spray is a common legal element in today's society. I don't know if LEO use pepper spray on a common basis. I am suggesting non lethal force which gives temporary discomfort is accepted practice, it's hard to watch "COPS" and see a person who is not complying with police commands get arrested that does not experience discomfort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

It was not a simple situation at all. Do you have any references to cite that say the it is the best method or that it only causes temporary discomfort? Or are they just your opinions? If they are just your opinions, then I think we have a tie because my opinion goes against yours on both points.

That's a slick argument- is it simple or not? Then you can site many differing elements of the incident and say see- it's not simple. Your previous argument lumps all incidents similar to this and asks us to assume how crowds are removed. The issue here can be boiled down to this: the protesters were asked to move, they did not, and were given discomfort to assist with the removal. Would you have liked it better if the police dropped a tear can canister while he had a gas mask instead so that the protestors would comply? Your opinion has little sway on LEO tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

For example: [Pepper spray injuries of the anterio... [Klin Monbl Augenheilkd. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

Honus · #**192** 11-24-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

...That's a slick argument- is it simple or not? Then you can site many differing elements of the incident and say see- it's not simple. Your previous argument lumps all incidents similar to this and asks us to assume how crowds are removed...

Yes and no. My previous argument, which is the same as my current argument, is that controlling a crowd of recalcitrant protesters is never simple. So, in that way I am lumping this situation in with other crowd control situations, which is not to say that there is some cookie-cutter approach that works in all cases. You are incorrect, though, when you say that I ask you to assume anything. I've said, a few times now I think, that I don't know what the proper method is. I'm just saying that the pepper spray method does not appear to be mainstream police procedure. I think I'm on pretty solid ground there. If not, I hope someone will say so and provide a basis for saying so.

Quote:

The issue here can be boiled down to this: the protesters were asked to move, they did not, and were given discomfort to assist with the removal. Would you have liked it better if the police dropped a tear can canister while he had a gas mask instead so that the protestors would comply?

No. That would be even worse than what he did.

Quote:

Your opinion has little sway on LEO tactics.

Right. I thought that's what I said. I was hoping someone would offer something authoritative to tell us what the police generally do in a situation like that.

Botnst · #**193** 11-24-2011, 03:55 PM

Waterboard the cops, the chancellor and the students, live on TV.

PaulC · #**194** 11-24-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

What was the better path for removing them? We've covered this and you ignored the most important question. How do you know there was not a risk of injury to the LEO? Circumstances are simple- they are breaking the law and were asked to move so they would not be breaking the law. They refused. The best path we have seen - non lethal force which causes temporary discomfort.
The complainers need to quit crying about temporary discomfort of law breakers.

Why did they have to be removed?

Solid Snake · #**195** 11-24-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

How do you know? I was earning $25/hr in the summer in college, freelance tutoring and doing tech for a small business. Those who say that students don't have a clue about business haven't met a lot of college students.

If you really hope that your child gets subjected to gratuitous violence by some rent-a-pig, I really hope that you don't breed. That's the most disgusting thing that I've read today.

I've worked as a physics tutor and handyman at my respective college, as well as interned for Sikorsky and Yale Med School. I can assure you I have no insight on the business accumen of today. Underlings don't count as a CFO.

Hardly gratuitous violence. Clubbing my kid and hitting them with riot shields and rubber bullets, that's gratuitous. Pepper spray, something any paranoid suburban housewife can purchase, is hardly what I'd consider gratuitous.

If my kid plays with fire, just as when I do, they better be aware of the potential to be burned.