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  #301  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Txjake View Post
I am sure that every teacher that died in CT Friday wished that they had a way to defend themselves....
I would not make that assumption.

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  #302  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:34 PM
Inna-propriate-da-vida
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I write this post to you specifically, because you're an individual who's fully capable of rational thought without holding a specific bias. The bias on this subject is legendary and those on the RWNJ portion of the spectrum cannot be swayed from their position where they are legally right to own whatever firearm they wish. Arguing with them is a total and complete waste of time and space as there is no possible intelligence that ever comes from them.

As you are certainly aware, when 19 DB's decided to take the lives of 3000 people on 9/11, they accomplished that task with a set of box cutters. Note that these instruments were not permitted on the aircraft at that time, however the scrutiny of such devices was not the best. The government response was to beef up security at the airport so no box cutters could possibly get by the screening checkpoint. This would be a typical reaction of the government.

The government, it the one tidbit of intelligence that it has, decided to reinforce the cockpit doors, figuring, rightly so, that you cannot hijack an airplane if you can't get into the cockpit.

The DB then decides, since box cutters and guns won't get through the checkpoint, to utilize a bomb in his shoe. This failed due to his stupidity but the government's reactive response is to search the shoes of every single passenger on every aircraft on every single day.

Be assured that the DB will not use a shoe bomb again.

The next thing that the DB will do is to use a shoulder fired anti-aircraft missile fired from the ground. This is very easily accomplished and an airliner is a sitting duck for such a weapon. The government's response will probably be to attempt to ban all shoulder fired weapons because they are reactive and they have to do something to placate the population.

It is not difficult to extend this argument to weapons that can be hand carried.

At the present time, in or around NY, it is effectively impossible to own a handgun and carry it outside of your home. This has not made the slightest dent in the gun deaths in NY. Most are caused by illegal handguns.

If I go with your argument to strongly regulate all handguns, the next DB shows up with a rifle (Whoops...........the current DB used a rifle). If you were to attempt to take away all rifles, the next DB shows up with a shotgun. In any case, the unarmed citizens are sitting ducks for a deranged DB who is hell bent on taking the lives of innocent people.

However, if you use the analogy of the airliner:

You cannot take out the aircraft if you cannot get into the cockpit.

I'm not sure what it would take to keep a concerted DB out of a public school. You have seen a perfectly sound system being thwarted by a gun that destroyed the locking capability of the door.

The only solution that I have is a twofold solution that would utilize the locking doors in conjunction with two heavily armed guards that stay in the building at all times.

Note, however, that you have only accomplished the safety of the children while inside the building. They still must arrive and depart from the building, and, as such, are still sitting ducks for a concerted DB with a rifle.

I do realize the emotional response that caused many on here to condemn the specific weapon. However, there is always another weapon that is different from the banned weapon, and/or there is always another method that is different from the current tragedy, and fully preventing another school tragedy inside the classroom will simply result in the DB using an easier target such as a shopping mall or a movie theater.

We have a society that is becoming more violent and random violence has become a fact of life in this country. Banning one or two tools used for that violence won't change that fact.


Valid points. Certainly anything the government will do is going to end up a hack job with poor results.

What I have been trying to get from some of these people is a realization that the public opinion is moving away from the gun owners, and if they cannot tone down the rhetoric to at least appear sensible, then their voices and opinions are going to be discounted. That will not prove to be a benefit to the responsible gun owners.

As drop as stated, our country is awash with weapons, and people would like to see something done about it. If any plan is to stand a chance, it needs to be a federal/national plan. As you know in NYC, it is impossible to clamp down in one selected area with any degree of effectiveness, as people will just travel outside of the boundary to get their weapons.

I anticipate a push for national legislation against handguns. Not an agenda I'm pushing, but something I fully expect to see.
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  #303  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.
Horsecrap.

I guess MADD was just spinning it's wheels, trying to get existing DUI/DWI laws enforced, much less advocating tougher punishments? Not to mention the lack of enforcement of the plethora of other traffic laws?

We've discussed DB drivers on this forum ad nauseaum. For all the safety features and improvements and regulations, we still have accidents and people still get killed, because we still refuse to acknowledge and address the real problem - MAKING SURE THAT THE DB HOLDING THE STEERING WHEEL ACTUALLY KNOWS HOW TO ****ING DRIVE A CAR BEFORE WE HAND THEM A LICENSE.

SOME auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or act irresponsibly? How about DAMN NEAR ALL OF THEM, genius. Cars don't drive themselves.

To paraphrase BC, another GD hypocrite (the author of the article, not the poster), turning the subject of auto safety and fatalities on it's head, in an attempt to justify a simplistic feel-good "solution" to this tragedy - which still does nothing to address the root causes behind it or prevent it's reoccurrence - because it's always much easier to deal with inanimate objects than people.
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  #304  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
DUI is illegal and an issue for the same reason gun violence is an issue. We refuse to take action against it. People are not held responsible for their actions. A DUI driver still get to keep their license and their car. You want to bet that is if the law required loss of the car for a DUI stop that DUI would drop?
Agreed, so many of our laws on these very serious/dangerous/destructive issues are far too lax.

In Germany if you are caught DUI, you lose your license instantly for minimum 6 months, and have to pay massive fines (several thousand Euros). If caught again, you have to undergo a psych evaluation, pay HUGE fines (15,000+ euro) , go to prison, lose your license for a minimum of 2 years...after that strike three and you're doomed to ever drive again in most cases + prison.
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  #305  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
Sadly, you are absolutely correct. Any other response is the typical reaction without substance.
We can't try and prevent the guy from getting the gun the first place?
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  #306  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplinville View Post
BS!! A knife is much more easily concealed than a gun, and much smaller as well. With little training, anyone can become a mass murderer with any thing; rocks, chemicals, explosives, knives, vehicles, guns...they are all deadly.
And yet the weapon of choice is almost always a gun. Why is that?
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  #307  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:51 PM
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Probably because it is effective for what it was designed to do.
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  #308  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplinville View Post
BS!! A knife is much more easily concealed than a gun, and much smaller as well. With little training, anyone can become a mass murderer with any thing; rocks, chemicals, explosives, knives, vehicles, guns...they are all deadly.

This may be true; however, your point is exaggerated – mainly because we have yet to hear of a mass killing that involved a killer using rocks and/or knives.

I can understand a serial killer may use any instrument to kill numerous people; however, they are typically not all killed simultaneously at once like a mass shooting. Guns are unique in that a person can kill large amounts of people, indiscriminately and efficiently. More importantly, guns take little to no technical knowledge to be used effectively; where-as, chemicals can dissipate reducing their toxicity, and home manufactured explosives require a higher degree of technical knowledge to implement.
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  #309  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:05 PM
Inna-propriate-da-vida
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
Agreed, so many of our laws on these very serious/dangerous/destructive issues are far too lax.

In Germany if you are caught DUI, you lose your license instantly for minimum 6 months, and have to pay massive fines (several thousand Euros). If caught again, you have to undergo a psych evaluation, pay HUGE fines (15,000+ euro) , go to prison, lose your license for a minimum of 2 years...after that strike three and you're doomed to ever drive again in most cases + prison.
Do the police in Germany actively pursue DUI arrests in the manner of US police departments?
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  #310  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
We can't try and prevent the guy from getting the gun the first place?
We did...there are reports from NBC that claim he tried to get a rifle at a Dick's Sporting Goods store three days prior to the shooting, but was turned away. He was turned away because he refused to follow the mandatory waiting period or undergo a background check.

Don't you understand?? Gun control laws only work with the lawful, not the outlaws. Enacting more stringent laws would only succeed in creating more lawbreakers out of normally lawful gun owners.
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  #311  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by engatwork View Post
Probably because it is effective for what it was designed to do.
That is my point. are there other ways to kill? Yes, an infinite amount. How ever they're less efficient, more dangerous, less comfortable ( shooting is cleaner in any ways than shoving a knife through someone) and this does not mean we should give up on controlling what we can.
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  #312  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:53 PM
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Sadly sometimes horrible things happen to good and innocent people. More sadly their is no way to really prevent it from ever happening again.

If a DB wants to do damage to innocents, they can be amazingly creative.

In this case it sounds like CT's existing firearm laws worked fine, they prevented him from legally having a firearm. He had to steal and in the process kill his mother to arm himself.

Failing that he could have just made a trip to Bridgeport, Hartford, or New Haven and bought a weapon.
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  #313  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:53 PM
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I am not surprised by all the anti-gun rhetoric; it is a to-be-expected reaction to such a tragedy.

But what about looking closely at the values we accept and value? How many video games trivialize the sort of behavior we are all now decrying? How many people flock to the latest gore and violence-filled movie? We glorify violence, and especially gun violence using weapons with a massive firepower. We congratulate people who run up high scores killing people in video games. One is a fantasy; one is reality. Maybe one is mere rehearsal for the other. Maybe it time to put the 1st amendment advocates up against the 2nd amendment advocates. Or maybe we should take a serious look at the values we teach our kids, and stop wondering where the love of violence comes from.

These are indicators that we, as a society, accept, and even value violence.
I feel like Pogo's famous quote is worth posting here, for the benefit of all of us:
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
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  #314  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
That is my point. are there other ways to kill? Yes, an infinite amount. How ever they're less efficient, more dangerous, less comfortable ( shooting is cleaner in any ways than shoving a knife through someone) and this does not mean we should give up on controlling what we can.
If you outlawed all firearms tomorrow, and made people turn theirs in.

In 6 months if I wanted to kill someone I could still go to the right person, hand over a wad of cash, get a Glock, and shoot **** up.
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  #315  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
I am not surprised by all the anti-gun rhetoric; it is a to-be-expected reaction to such a tragedy.

But what about looking closely at the values we accept and value? How many video games trivialize the sort of behavior we are all now decrying? How many people flock to the latest gore and violence-filled movie? We glorify violence, and especially gun violence using weapons with a massive firepower. We congratulate people who run up high scores killing people in video games. One is a fantasy; one is reality. Maybe one is mere rehearsal for the other. Maybe it time to put the 1st amendment advocates up against the 2nd amendment advocates. Or maybe we should take a serious look at the values we teach our kids, and stop wondering where the love of violence comes from.

These are indicators that we, as a society, accept, and even value violence.
I feel like Pogo's famous quote is worth posting here, for the benefit of all of us:
We have met the enemy, and he is us.

IMHO we have two things at work here:

1. Copy cat syndrome. You have a crazy people who want to go out with a spark and they see all the media coverage that school shootings generate.

2. A society which fails to really help mentally ill people in any way, and discourages them from just offing themselves.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for school systems to start arming security guards, more so since at least in my state they are pretty common in schools but right now are glorified hall monitors. That's really the only way to effectively curtail crazy's like this.

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