Yeah, that's why Hitler was able to take over so easily. Once he got the guns out of the hands of everyone except the police and his Army, it was a cake walk.

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Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

Ooh oh oh it finally happened

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

Switzerland and Israel both seem to have a lot of guns but not much gun violence. It seems their situation needs to be looked at to see why and how it apparently works so well.

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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Their situation can be described as an external threat to small bodies of like minded individuals with similar cultural backrounds.

For Switzerland, its a cultural tradition of neutrality enforced by bristling defenses and military traditions going back forever, and for Israel, if they didn't arm everyone on the map, they would have been wiped off of it long ago.

There is no way we, as a huge varied powerful country with thousands of different cultural traditions and viewpoints either realistically can, or really needs to act in the same way.
We have more guns than anyone in the world though, and our needs for them are less imperative than either of those countries. How many people here have over a dozen weapons? all for apparently home defense, and all more likely to shoot or be shot by a loved one with them instead than actually defend their home.

Guns at home more likely to be used stupidly than in self-defense | Ars Technica

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Exactly the point I tried to get across a few pages back. Instead of just simple self-examination and trying to figure out what we've done wrong, do a comparison against other countries that apparently have gotten it right (albeit for their particular circumstances) - a high number of guns per populace, but seemingly low gun-related violence.

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heres a way to consider it. The state of Delaware is under constant attack and threat from the states of NJ, NY, MD, PA and VA. These 6 larger, heavier populated states have repeatedly attacked, and threatened to attack Delaware on a daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis for the last 50 years.

Thats an external threat that delaware has to take seriously, so they have a huge external enemy that they are highly militarized to react to. Thats Israel.


Now, elsewhere, the state of Colorado in mountainous impassible country has been walling itself off for the last 500 years and attempting to wait out every single of the dozens of wars that have been taking place all over the midwest without stop. In order to do this, every bridge in is lined with tank traps, every highway tunnel has included blast doors and hiding space for the population, and every one is armed to maintain their neutrality with force. Switzerland.

Again, its the external threat and their small size and vulnerability that makes these countries better able to retain military weapons for every single adult trained with them with required military service.

We don't have the training, we don't have the incentive, we dont have the fear of external destruction, we don't have the demonstration that its very possible, and we have more weapons to enjoy in the meantime. One thing we do have, is more freedoms than either of those countries, which would be nice to maintain. A closer country that we should be comparing ourselves too is Australia, who have interesting weapons bans based on similar circumstances, and a similar sense of national identity without external threat that is very real.

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Duh! Isn't it funny how it works that way? Both countries have a policy where virtually everyone serves in the military, gets training and proficiency. The bad guys in those countries know that doing something in the midst of all those guns and gunners will likely have serious and immediate consequences.

I remember seeing a young guy on a small motorcycle riding along next to me on the streets of Zurich with an UZI hanging on the back of the motorcycle.

In the airports of most of those countries it is VERY common to see police with a small, full automatic weopon on their person.

Along these lines, it's no coincidence that the crime rate has gone down since the widening trend toward concealed carry training and permits being issued in more and more states.

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Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

Good question but once again the purpose of the media is not to inform. The purpose is to make you believe. We think we are seeing an information service but what we are really seeing is more like a form of religion. You think, you believe, you know what happened but you weren't there and never saw what happened.

And it works brilliantly. The people believe. Hail the opiate of the masses.

Most of those who favor big-government solutions for all problems want to be judged on their ( stated) intentions, and never on the results.
Restrictive guns laws are but one example. As Brian has continually pointed out CT already HAS among the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Did those restrictions help? Evidence would suggest they did not. Whether they promoted an easy target is arguable, but laws did not stop the killing.
What evidence is there that laws stop bad behavior? Writing bad checks is illegal--and still people do it. Robbing banks is illegal, and still people do it. Identity theft is illegal, and people still do it. Public drunkenness and public urination are illegal, and people still do those things, too.
Sometimes laws do have the desired effect. Marijuana use is illegal, and always has been wherever I have lived, and for that reason, alone, I have refrained from it. But I am a law-abiding citizen. There are still people who use (illegally) Marijuana all over this country. Laws do not generally stop law-breakers from doing what they decide to do.
I wonder how much society would change if we erased all laws from the books--law abiding/ caring for others--like all of us here on PP--would continue to behave pretty much as we do. The law-breakers would continue to behave as they do.

Passing laws will not make bad people act like good people.

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davidmash posted this way earlier in the thread, but its a comparison of gun crime in developed countries-

Gun Ownership: An International Comparison - Independent Voter Network

Just seems to me like gun control can actually work given sufficient ability to make the idea popular. Pretty unlikely in this country, but the facts of other countries speak for themselves.

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It is notable that Cerebus Capital Mgmt is trying to sell off their lucrative but apparently tainted holdings in "Freedom Group" (owners of Bushmaster, Remington etc.). They call Sandy Hook a 'watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control'.

Press release:

Cerberus Capital Management Statement Regarding Freedom Group, Inc. -- NEW YORK, Dec. 18, 2012

As the saying goes, "Locks don't keep people out, they only keep honest people honest". Laws, regulations and punishment only keep honest and law abiding people, honest and law abiding.

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That does not seem to make any sense. If laws etc are the only thing that keep s law abiding people law abiding then in reality they are not law abiding people because only the laws are doing it so then law ... are making crooks obey the law. Good people do not need laws to tell them what is god or bad. Only bad people would need that. If the laws etc disappeared the bad people would run amok far more so then they already are. Stands to reason that if the laws are keeping bad people in check then more stringent laws might do a better job.

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- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

I would say that it is a balance. You and Walgamuth are correct in that a network of laws, tightly enforced, offers the greatest possible security.

The most free people have very poor security, indeed. They must provide their own.

Somewhere between is probably where we all wish to be.

For me, making laws to catch people doing something who have not harmed anybody is an infringement. I completely understand that mine is a minority view and I accept that.

But it doesn't change my belief or opinion nor does it infringe (yet) on my belief that I should articulate what I believe, even when it is unpopular.

Perhaps I am missing something but would you rather have a law in place that prevents you from being killed or one that is in place that will prosecute the person who just killed you?

I am trying to present ideas that I think would help prevent the person from getting a gun to kill you, if it fails we can still prosecute but I'd like to prevent your death if at all possible.

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2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.