Non-instrument rated pilots should not be flying in zero visibility. Night is zero visibility. He should not have been flying.

The radio worked just fine. When you fly GA you should monitor a specific freq (what is it Larry? 122.5?) and also monitor whatever airport is nearby so that you can keep up with traffic. I think when you're under instruments you are required to monitor the ATC freq. I expect that the pilot was engaged with his passengers rather than his airplane.

In the 15 months before the accident, the pilot had flown either to or from the destination area about 35 times. The pilot flew at least 17 of these flight legs without a CFI on board, of which 5 were at night. Within 100 days before the accident, the pilot had completed about 50 percent of a formal instrument training course.

He was enrolled in and attending a formal instrument training course... doesn't sound like he was being an overconfident elitist....

The AC also states that some illusions might lead to spatial disorientation or the inability to determine accurately the attitude or motion of the aircraft in relation to the earth's surface. The AC further states that spatial disorientation, as a result of continued VFR flight into adverse weather conditions, is regularly near the top of the cause/factor list in annual statistics on fatal aircraft accidents. According to AC 60-4A, "Pilot's Spatial Disorientation," tests conducted with qualified instrument pilots indicated that it can take as long as 35 seconds to establish full control by instruments after a loss of visual reference of the earth's surface.

It would seem as if this kind of accident can happen even to fully trained instrument qualified pilots.

NYC99MA178

Not having known him or his family, and not being overly familiar with the incident, I am basing my opinions directly on the NTSB report.
I could be wrong, but have not read anything to indicate such....

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On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

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Enroute Flight Advisory Service (EFAS) is 122.0 and is available after climb out. If he needed in flight weather reports, Flight Watch is 122.2. If you don't remember what freq you need, you can call 122.X from about anywhere and get the help you need, even if it means they give you the frequency you need.

Over the water with no significant moonlight and a crystal clear sky, if you are not instrument competent, you will be a dead man flying, as was the helicopter pilot over the pitch dark Gulf.

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Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

So in your mind the fact that he had started, but had not completed, an instrument certification bolsters the argument that he wasn't overconfident?

In my mind it does just the opposite, since he apparently started IMC training he should have been well aware of the risks of starting a flight VFR but then having to face the issues of IMC 'on-the-fly'.

The fact that he hit the surface nose-down at 4,700 fpm kind of seals the deal for me - he was either way over his head or as Bot speculates he wasn't watching what he was doing and talking with his passengers.

Both scenarios kinda lead me to the overconfidence theory.

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Yeah, he had passed the written test, so what? He had no simulated instrument time beyond what he had for his private which is almost pointless because it is NOT enough to control a plane on instruments for any time at all. It takes a MINIMUM of 40 hours intensive simulated instrument time to even be eligible for the instrument check ride. As I said, even the pro pilot over the gulf had no actual instrument time for a long time before and he went in. A low time pilot with 3 hours on instruments wouldn't have a chance.

Yes, he had made the trip multiple times before. He probably had moonlight and a clear sky on those trips for the ones at night. As I remember, not all of his previous trips over the water were at night. Every night flight will be different.

It is a given that he was not competent with instruments or he would not have gone in. When they indicate spatial disorientation it does not mean that he fainted. It means he could not keep the plane under control by visual or seat of the pants flying. When you are at that point if you can not fly the plane on instruments you are dead.

Why is this so difficult to understand? As I said I have never heard or read a pilot familiar with the accident that did not agree on this. It is extremely fundamental for a pilot to understand.

Some people here are starting to indicate that they too think that Johns shlt didn't stink. I know it's hard for you to admit, but he was a fallible human being despite of having the Kennedy last name.

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2001 SLK 320 six speed manual
2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual

Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

Well said.

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2001 SLK 320 six speed manual
2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual

Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

That may in fact be completely true. However, I've seen him say some rather foolish things from time to time. Not like that can't happen to anyone here........

just sayin'

The fact was that he was currently enrolled and attending an instrument class indicates to me that he was actively working at increasing his skills.

Dream up whatever scenarios you wish so you can feel justified in gloating about his death...

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

You continue to just make 5hit up....

During this training, the pilot accumulated 13.3 hours of flight time with a CFI on board. In addition, the pilot logged 16.9 hours of simulator time.
NYC99MA178

Here... we'll just make up more 5hit...

Yeah... I figured out what spatial disorientation means...

What is easy to understand is that you are allowing your distaste for his dad/family/politics to justify your interpretation of the accident.

I understand that he was a fallible human being, just like all of us except Larry...

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

I can't speak to being a pilot, but I know when I have worked with dangerous stuff that the most likely time for a F-U is after I have done it so often that it is no longer new, but not so often that I haven't yet scared myself witless.

I imagine John was at the confidence stage without having gained wisdom. That's a bad combination in any dangerous enterprise.

You are doing your usual bait and switch routine.
What you said, was he's dead because of his elitist experiences in the white house as a toddler.
What you are saying now, is the overconfidence with insufficient training was the cause of the accident.

I think you will find that most people agree with the second statement, and there is considerable difference between your silly rant initially against the guy in the first place, and the real reasns he ended up killed. I suggest you as usual read your own posts to find out what people are responding to.
As I said, I don't have much use for the kennedy clan either, but I draw the line at the preposterous connection between a toddler in the white house, and the same persons death 30 years later.

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Could very well be.
Certainly sounds like a reasonable assessment.

All in all, it was a tragic accident, and the bad mouthing here of the deceased seems sort of mean-spirited, partisan and downright unchristian.

How's your popcorn?

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

Here's some golden information for you CMD: Every pilot worth a crap knows he is a better pilot than those other guys. And he can't wait to demonstrate it. And they talk about flying and they talk about NTSB reports and they speculate about what happened and feel like they'd have done better.

Pilots tend to be cocky som*****es. I sure as hell wouldn't want to fly with a pessimist.

A good pilot is cocky about his abilities but also a bit scared because he knows good pilots F-U. Especially over-confident pilots. Over-confident, cocky, and new with a cockpit full of familiar friends talking is not a good situation. having done exactly the same thing several times previously wouldn't make it better, it would make it worse.

BTW, the pilot I fly with is the best one.

Yeah, I don't like the badmouthing. It was tragic in every sense.

A pilot will tell you that the fault was his, which it was. If the plane didn't do it, he did. That is tragic on top of everything else.

you ask us to have sympathy for your cardiac and family troubles; then, you share your joy in insulting jimmy carters daughter? karma is a *****,buddy.

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