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  #16  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
So Subaru stole the design, improved it a bit and it's been successful ever since.
You got that right! I loved my 84 Subie 4WD wagon, that thing was reliable as hell, got great MPG and was pretty easy to work on.

Who'd have thunk that wrapping some sheet metal around the cooling fins would have made the heater work so well
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  #17  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:37 AM
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You have to admit....having an engine setup that complex (or messy ) can be viewed as a DIY super-challenge!

Personally I am a technology addict...and if I had a detailed shop manual and some time I could probably do ok working on one....thats my guess.....if I can afford one I want to get a ML cdi at some point in the next 5-6 years....we'll see how they do in terms of reliability.
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  #18  
Old 12-30-2006, 09:22 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by justinperkins View Post
there's people who are anti "new cars" and this group has quite a few of 'em (the W123 diehards). Not a big deal but it just makes me laugh a little bit.

Reminds me of the air-cooled crowd from my days of VW shows and swap meets. Those people hated (and still do) water-cooled VW's just because they had the extra complication of water.
Simple rule: Never, ever buy a car new enough to have a check engine light.

BTW, I wouldn't even consider buying a liquid cooled VW, porsche, or BMW motorcycle either.
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  #19  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by justinperkins View Post


hey you old men (previous comments), don't be afraid of technology, unless you're 80 years old, you're going to have suck it up and just be cool with the fact that complication does not equal evil.

100 years ago you all would have been *****in about these compression engines and how whacky they are compared to your simple little horse carriage.

I would give my 80 TD, my 86 VW and my 87 TD for a CDI wagon. Oh wait, that's not even close to enough...
I'm certainly not "afraid" of the technology. Personally, I build things that are more exacting than the CDI. And, I have no problem sucking it up and being cool with the fact that complication does not equal evil.

However, when it comes time to do the wrenching on the CDI, you've got to ask yourself a question? Who's going to do it? Do you really believe that you're up to that task? I can tell you that I'm not.

If you don't wrench on it, you're at the mercy of the dealer and it's going to cost you a small fortune.

Naturally, you can always lease it for three years and turn it in..........costs you about $20K for that privlege (not counting insurance).
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  #20  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:31 AM
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I can take my OM616 turbo through water if I have to as long as I keep the intake and exhaust working, question is can that be done to an engine like CDI with all its complex array of electronics, we all know electronics and water are sworn enemies for life no matter what.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:31 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I'm certainly not "afraid" of the technology. Personally, I build things that are more exacting than the CDI. And, I have no problem sucking it up and being cool with the fact that complication does not equal evil.
The real issue is the modern engines have traded lots of complexity for gains in efficiency and emissions. As a result, I'm afraid that these cars will all be disposable. I can't imagine that it will be worth preserving one of these cars for 20 or 30 years. Even if the parts were available, the cost would be prohibitive. I'm just not interested in disposable cars.

The only way I would drive one of these is on a lease with a fixed residual, which is a horrible financial deal, and I certainly wouldn't want to own one past it's warrantee. Besides, I just don't think they are very interesting cars.
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  #22  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
The only way I would drive one of these is on a lease with a fixed residual, which is a horrible financial deal, and I certainly wouldn't want to own one past it's warrantee. Besides, I just don't think they are very interesting cars.

I definitely agree with the former.

But, on the latter, I must admit that they are quite interesting. To get 50% more power from a similar sized engine and provide better driveability and fuel economy is definitely interesting.

If I had nothing but time, I might consider getting sufficient knowledge to own one........but........that's highly unlikely.
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  #23  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:27 AM
Craig
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They're probably OK, but they just don't interest me very much. For $60K I could buy about 4 much more interesting older cars.
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  #24  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
They're probably OK, but they just don't interest me very much. For $60K I could buy about 4 much more interesting older cars.
You are looking at the cost and making the decision that they are uninteresting.

I submit that they are interesting vehicles from an engineering standpoint.

Whether we would purchase one for anywhere near the asking price is a completely different discussion.
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  #25  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:51 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
You are looking at the cost and making the decision that they are uninteresting.

I submit that they are interesting vehicles from an engineering standpoint.

Whether we would purchase one for anywhere near the asking price is a completely different discussion.
Actually both; the cost is silly for a mid-level sedan, and I don't find them very interesting at any price.

I'm just not impressed by electronic engine controls, I'm just a mechanical type of guy. I'm certainly not interested in anything with air-bags, ABS, traction control, or (of course) a check engine light. I'll just keep driving the oldest car I can afford.
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  #26  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
Actually both; the cost is silly for a mid-level sedan, and I don't find them very interesting at any price.

I'm just not impressed by electronic engine controls, I'm just a mechanical type of guy. I'm certainly not interested in anything with air-bags, ABS, traction control, or (of course) a check engine light. I'll just keep driving the oldest car I can afford.
I still think that you're not impressed by them because you know the pain that you'll suffer if you have to fix 'em.
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  #27  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:02 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I still think that you're not impressed by them because you know the pain that you'll suffer if you have to fix 'em.
Sure that's part of it, but I just don't find electronic control designs very elegant.
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  #28  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I submit that they are interesting vehicles from an engineering standpoint.
Just for the sake of arguement let us look at the big picture, Mercedes has always been at the forefront of diesel technology, so roll your clock back 30 years, there was the 240D manual, as simple and primitive as it gets, now compare the 240D to a 98/99 turbodiesel, more power more performance with an order of magnitude more complexity.
Now compare the 98/99 turbo to a current CDI, side by side with hoods open the E300 looks almost as primitive as a 240D next to the CDI, again an order of magnitude more complexity.
I am not against progress but this level of complexity combined with Mercedes' miserable reliability history makes the CDI a 100K/warranty period car. For me paying $60K for 100K miles service is a bit too much, soooo, thanks but no thanks.

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  #29  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:36 PM
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I'm pretty sure that if I were to so much as try and pull an injector on that engine (on which I couldn't even see the rail or the injectors) I'd have a record number of bolts and nuts left over after reassembly .
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:39 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by vahe View Post
I am not against progress but this level of complexity combined with Mercedes' miserable reliability history makes the CDI a 100K/warranty period car. For me paying $60K for 100K miles service is a bit too much, soooo, thanks but no thanks.
While I agree with the conclusion, your numbers are a little simplistic. After 100K miles, this car will have some residual value, maybe $15-20K, so the actual cost of depreciation is more like $.40/mile. Assume about $5K more for maintenance over 100K miles, and a fuel cost of about $.07 gets you to a total of about $.50 or .55/mile. The other question is if you want to tie up $60K of capital in a car, that's not a good investment. If you can't pay cash, it's an even worse investment.

I can drive my 300D indefinitely for about $.25 or .30 mile and I could probably run one into the ground for about $.15/mile. I could also drive some late model ricer POS for about $.15/mile.
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