Can I use butane torch to loosen this A/C hose fitting? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

ROLLGUY · #16 06-20-2017, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Lots of discussion if you google it..
bottom line
it is a Blend... so you can not just top it off when it starts getting low.. due to smaller molecules leaking out and changing the ratio...
Duracool is a combo of R134a and something..... and many advertised it wrongly as a ' direct drop in replacement ' for R12....

Use only legal refrigerants which you can get serviced by legit garages ( they do not want to contaminate their equipment ) unless you are sure you will be doing all the AC work yourself and never want to sell the car...

Although I will not argue with anyone with your experience and knowledge on A/C, and I agree with what you say about blended refrigerants, I have heard that R134a is going to be phased out (much like R12 was), and replaced with an HC refrigerant. I am sure there will be a day (maybe sooner than we think) when shops will need at least three machines to deal with the automotive A/C system refrigerants that will be in use. The modern systems that are designed for use with R134a do work very well. The problem is the old systems in our cars, and the inefficient refrigerant we are nearly forced to use. If a new "legal" refrigerant comes along that is phased in for use in new vehicles, and the technology is there for it's use in older systems, then we may be "forced" to use it- HC or otherwise. Without more education, I will not form an opinion either way as to the safety,efficiency, or economical pros/cons of any new HC, HFC, or CFC refrigerant that comes our way. I am open to learn all that I can these things.....Rich

mach4 · #17 06-20-2017, 12:57 PM

In contemplating refrigerants, it's helpful to understand that it has almost nothing to do with refrigerants per se, but rather a cosmic battle between patent holders, politicians, big business, auto manufacturers, bureaucrats, militant environmentalists and regulators.

Absent from this list are refrigeration physics, DIYers, auto owners and science.

Once you understand the larger environment, it makes complete sense that perfectly serviceable refrigerants like good old propane and close relatives are shunned - there's just no money there, it can't be regulated and taxed, and the shops would lose valuable business.

Your chances of getting caught running an "unauthorized" refrigerant are close to zero as long as you don't trash a shops stash of recovered refrigerants or brag to an EPA life form.

A good amount of the information out there comes from "interested sources". Just like the "fake news" promulgated by those with a vested political interest there is a lot of "fake" science and information surrounding refrigerants and getting solid information takes a lot of work. "Political Science" isn't just about traditional politics anymore.

Not suggesting anyone break any laws or believe anything in particular....just commenting on current reality.

....and even the claims of the alternative refrigerant purveyors must be taken with the reality that they too have a vested interest

Good luck!

ROLLGUY · #18 06-20-2017, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach4

In contemplating refrigerants, it's helpful to understand that it has almost nothing to do with refrigerants per se, but rather a cosmic battle between patent holders, politicians, big business, auto manufacturers, bureaucrats, militant environmentalists and regulators.

Absent from this list are refrigeration physics, DIYers, auto owners and science.

Once you understand the larger environment, it makes complete sense that perfectly serviceable refrigerants like good old propane and close relatives are shunned - there's just no money there, it can't be regulated and taxed, and the shops would lose valuable business.

Your chances of getting caught running an "unauthorized" refrigerant are close to zero as long as you don't trash a shops stash of recovered refrigerants or brag to an EPA life form.

A good amount of the information out there comes from "interested sources". Just like the "fake news" promulgated by those with a vested political interest there is a lot of "fake" science and information surrounding refrigerants and getting solid information takes a lot of work. "Political Science" isn't just about traditional politics anymore.

Not suggesting anyone break any laws or believe anything in particular....just commenting on current reality.

....and even the claims of the alternative refrigerant purveyors must be taken with the reality that they too have a vested interest

Good luck!

Very well said (as always), thanks.

leathermang · #19 06-20-2017, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach4

In contemplating refrigerants,....

Absent from this list are refrigeration physics, ..... science.

Once you understand the larger environment,.......

Your chances of getting caught running an "unauthorized" refrigerant are close to zero as long as you don't trash a shops stash of recovered refrigerants or brag to an EPA life form. .....
A good amount of the information out there comes from "interested sources". Just like the "fake news" promulgated by those with a vested political interest there is a lot of "fake" science and information surrounding refrigerants and getting solid information takes a lot of work. "Political Science" isn't just about traditional politics anymore. ......
Not suggesting anyone break any laws or believe anything in particular....just commenting on current reality. .......
....and even the claims of the alternative refrigerant purveyors must be taken with the reality that they too have a vested interest

Good luck!

Mach4, I do not know you well enough to call you a conspiracy theorist... but your post seems to lean that direction... So I am just going to reply with my concerns...

1. I worry that a non standard refrigerant will not adequately carry the needed oil around our systems.

2. ' Chances of getting caught ' .... you have conveniently chosen your example to fit your view... so I am going to describe the more likely and way worse situation I worry about regarding Flammable refrigerants like Propane... ( which are widely used in stationary AC systems )...

IF it is illegal in your state to use a HFC like Propane.. and you USE it... and your are in an accident where you and the others involved can not immediately exit the vehicle/s .... and it catches fire..... That is a terrible situation... I really don't need to say that.. but it is really bad..

but here is what else can happen if a good lawyer happens to find out that you were using an ILLEGAL flammable refrigerant which had oil mixed into it... which of course was under pressure... and at the front of the vehicle with NO protection in a collision..

It means at the very least... lets assume a civil matter for damages.... you have arrived in court with DIRTY HANDS.... particularly with our diesel car fuel... a fire which developed faster than they ''think'' it should have... and you using an illegal refrigerant which will surely be sprayed into the crash area...It does not have to be true that your illegal refrigerant caused the situation to be worse....but how will you prove that ? What are you going to say to the judge or jury ...' I saved x amount of dollars' and decided the regulations or the physics did not apply to me ?

I just think it is not reasonable to take the chance on whatever level that a refrigerant not generally accepted for MOBILE systems when other chemicals are available..

I have admitted in the past that my background affects my attitude towards burning to death in an accident.. where if no fire were present the situation would be totally different...

At age 18.5 years I started flying helicopters in the Army... I spent 1969 in Viet Nam as a HUEY Slick pilot...you have no idea how much time I have spent in safety meetings.....I made it back by following the rules and being lucky....

In 1980 I went through Texas Peace Officer certification... a full week of that eight weeks was a Texas State Trooper reading every page of the Texas Vehicle Code to us. You are always taking a huge chance if you spend any time ' outside the flight envelope' .... which is what I would describe using a non approved refrigerant is doing.

HuskyMan · #20 06-20-2017, 06:17 PM

Well, like all things, user beware. On another note, drove a rental car this past week, a buick. the A/C was ICE ICE BABY!! I didn't think R-134 could get that C-C-C-C-COLD but it did! I'm wondering if I could use it in the diesel, they tell me the hold back is the evaporator which was designed for R12.

mach4 · #21 06-20-2017, 06:30 PM

Whatever....

leathermang · #22 06-20-2017, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

Well, like all things, user beware. On another note, drove a rental car this past week, a buick. the A/C was ICE ICE BABY!! I didn't think R-134 could get that C-C-C-C-COLD but it did! I'm wondering if I could use it in the diesel, they tell me the hold back is the evaporator which was designed for R12.

The Bottleneck... or ' hold back ' is at the condensor..... it is the part which if ' overdone' ... like a huge amount of air passes over it.... can MAKE UP for less than optimum performance in one or more of the other components...

compress ignite · #23 06-20-2017, 11:24 PM

On the O-Rings

On the Actual Fitting's Threads I'd Put Anti-Seize

Anti-Seize Compound | LOCTITE - Henkel Adhesives North America

I'd Call their Tech Line and consult on Which to use!

Kroil in the Spray Can (+ you'll find it handy in a lot of other uses)

Zulfiqar · #24 06-21-2017, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Mach4, I do not know you well enough to call you a conspiracy theorist... but your post seems to lean that direction... So I am just going to reply with my concerns...

1. I worry that a non standard refrigerant will not adequately carry the needed oil around our systems.

2. ' Chances of getting caught ' .... you have conveniently chosen your example to fit your view... so I am going to describe the more likely and way worse situation I worry about regarding Flammable refrigerants like Propane... ( which are widely used in stationary AC systems )...

IF it is illegal in your state to use a HFC like Propane.. and you USE it... and your are in an accident where you and the others involved can not immediately exit the vehicle/s .... and it catches fire..... That is a terrible situation... I really don't need to say that.. but it is really bad..

but here is what else can happen if a good lawyer happens to find out that you were using an ILLEGAL flammable refrigerant which had oil mixed into it... which of course was under pressure... and at the front of the vehicle with NO protection in a collision..

It means at the very least... lets assume a civil matter for damages.... you have arrived in court with DIRTY HANDS.... particularly with our diesel car fuel... a fire which developed faster than they ''think'' it should have... and you using an illegal refrigerant which will surely be sprayed into the crash area...It does not have to be true that your illegal refrigerant caused the situation to be worse....but how will you prove that ? What are you going to say to the judge or jury ...' I saved x amount of dollars' and decided the regulations or the physics did not apply to me ?

I just think it is not reasonable to take the chance on whatever level that a refrigerant not generally accepted for MOBILE systems when other chemicals are available..

I have admitted in the past that my background affects my attitude towards burning to death in an accident.. where if no fire were present the situation would be totally different...

At age 18.5 years I started flying helicopters in the Army... I spent 1969 in Viet Nam as a HUEY Slick pilot...you have no idea how much time I have spent in safety meetings.....I made it back by following the rules and being lucky....

In 1980 I went through Texas Peace Officer certification... a full week of that eight weeks was a Texas State Trooper reading every page of the Texas Vehicle Code to us. You are always taking a huge chance if you spend any time ' outside the flight envelope' .... which is what I would describe using a non approved refrigerant is doing.

If you are worried about sharing the road and thinking of accidents with cars having less than a lb of propane in a refrigeration system, then you should be really really alarmed at any city vehicle with the CNG diamond sticker on the back.

that natural gas is held at 3000 psi and has steel tubes going to the engine room at 3000 psi where the regulator tames it down. (natural gas is flammable last I remembered)

I have seen passenger cars on CNG involved in accidents where the tank valve blew out - there was nothing remaining of the car rear end where the tank was and the driver had severe injuries and 80% of the time were fatal.

As mentioned above, its all a bunch of politicians and big corp. throwing big numbers around. You got the peace corp training, good for you, too bad they didnt want to show you the real ugly stuff which is being swept under the carpet.

HuskyMan · #25 06-21-2017, 05:17 PM

That sounds like a real CNG BBQ!!! I also understand maintenance cost can be quite high for CNG vehicles....

leathermang · #26 06-21-2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

If you are worried about sharing the road and thinking of accidents with cars having less than a lb of propane in a refrigeration system, then you should be really really alarmed at any city vehicle with the CNG diamond sticker on the back.

that natural gas is held at 3000 psi and has steel tubes going to the engine room at 3000 psi where the regulator tames it down. (natural gas is flammable last I remembered)

I have seen passenger cars on CNG involved in accidents where the tank valve blew out - there was nothing remaining of the car rear end where the tank was and the driver had severe injuries and 80% of the time were fatal.

As mentioned above, its all a bunch of politicians and big corp. throwing big numbers around. You got the peace corp training, good for you, too bad they didnt want to show you the real ugly stuff which is being swept under the carpet.

You missed the point on every level...
We are discussing a situation where OUR MEMBERS have a choice in what they choose to do.. with some choices better than others... and me pointing out that not only the physics comes into play... but liabilities which some people ( lawyers for instance ) have a vested interest in assigning blame...and if you are violating the law you will be assessed some of the liability when you get to court... ( not to mention the possibility of aggravating a situation to where there is a fire when it could have been avoided by following the law and the EPA regs )
Where did you get the idea I got Peace Corp training ?
I Got Texas Peace Officer training.. I was a Deputy Sheriff and a Deputy Constable at different times......

funola · #27 06-21-2017, 10:31 PM

Don't be fooled by scare tactics. The chance of propane or any hydro carbon refrigerant starting a fire in an accident is extremely small.

The Flammable Range (Explosive Range) is the concentration range of a gas or vapor that will burn (or explode) if an ignition source is introduced.

Three basic requirements must be met for explosion to take place:

flammable substance - fuel
oxidizer - oxygen or air
source of ignition - spark or high heat
Below the explosive or flammable range the mixture is too lean to burn and above the upper explosive or flammable limit the mixture is too rich to burn. The limits are commonly called the "Lower Explosive or Flammable Limit" (LEL/LFL) and the "Upper Explosive or Flammable Limit" (UEL/UFL).

Gases - Explosion and Flammability Concentration Limits

Here's a study done on HC refrigereant http://fam-bjork.se/citroen/AC/external/cfca95.pdf

This is copied from the study "There are now over 200,000 car air-conditioners using HC refrigerant and over
400,000 operating years have been accumulated. No accidents in which hydrocarbon
refrigerant caused damage or injury due to its flammability have been reported
to manufacturers or safety authorities yet."

leathermang · #28 06-21-2017, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

Don't be fooled by scare tactics. The chance of propane or any hydro carbon refrigerant starting a fire in an accident is extremely small.

The Flammable Range (Explosive Range) is the concentration range of a gas or vapor that will burn (or explode) if an ignition source is introduced.

Three basic requirements must be met for explosion to take place:

flammable substance - fuel
oxidizer - oxygen or air
source of ignition - spark or high heat
Below the explosive or flammable range the mixture is too lean to burn and above the upper explosive or flammable limit the mixture is too rich to burn. The limits are commonly called the "Lower Explosive or Flammable Limit" (LEL/LFL) and the "Upper Explosive or Flammable Limit" (UEL/UFL).

Gases - Explosion and Flammability Concentration Limits

Here's a study done on HC refrigereant http://fam-bjork.se/citroen/AC/external/cfca95.pdf

This is copied from the study "There are now over 200,000 car air-conditioners using HC refrigerant and over
400,000 operating years have been accumulated. No accidents in which hydrocarbon
refrigerant caused damage or injury due to its flammability have been reported
to manufacturers or safety authorities yet."

""" Extremely Small '''' TRUE... but I do not want to be that exception when it is easy to avoid the chance completely...

I know you are some kind of engineer of some kind...... and that exposition looks impressive to many people..

The problems are numerous with your description... the flammable refrigerant in question would ALSO have OIL dissolved in it.... so under pressure and an escape route it would be sprayed out into the immediate area...

Now you may be too young to have ever used a Manual Choke on a car or riding lawnmower ... or anything..

But the procedure when using a manual Choke... is that you pull it to choke the engine....which causes an overly rich mixture to be entering the cylinders.. and then you disengage the manual Choke

WHILE

continuing to crank the engine...

THUS the fuel to air mixture goes THROUGH the range from TOO Rich.. to ( if the ignition is firing the spark plugs ) to the right mixture... where upon the engine cranks....

If you have hot spots... or sparks ... extant when the flammable refrigerant with its dissolved oil is sprayed into the area... then you risk the natural forces.. like the normal movement of air... causing that ' overly rich ' example to run move through to less rich and potentially flammable concentrations.. just like the manual choke being disengaged with the engine still pulling in fresh air....

And then there are the examples of GRAIN Elevators exploding.... and example of DUST mixed with just plain AIR... and a spark from normal static electricity causing deaths regularly...

That ''' extremely small chance'''' you go to the trouble to share with people... again.... is an example of YOU , the person making the case , of having NO SKIN in the game if that ' small chance' does harm someone.....

You also imply that the authorities which have not been notified yet of ''' manufacturers or safety authorities yet''' would have been notified .. when all the rest of your arguments on this forum display a healthy skepticism of manufactures and governmental authorities..... It may just be that no one investigating an accident which was aggravated by a flammable refrigerant was smart enough to check for that... and if the car burned to the ground... i don't know if they would be able to determine what refrigerant was used...

Anyway... I have expressed my case as well as I can... there IS A chance for a flammable refrigerant to aggravate a crash and that might be the difference between LIFE and DEATH.... and it is EASY TO AVOID that risk Completely...
To me that is a no brainer of a choice..

BillGrissom · #29 06-23-2017, 12:14 AM

If anyone wants to use heat on that joint, remove the Shraeder valve innards first since it has plastic seals. You can buy a tool to unscrew it. Some metal caps have an integral tool, so I insure I have one on all my bicycles and some cars. Otherwise, as long as the heat isn't so long and strong as to get to the rubber AC hoses, should be OK. I never had trouble removing that suction fitting, but I have long metric wrenches.

If anyone needs to replace the rubber hoses while in there, search for my post w/ photos.

Re Duracool, I now have it in all my vehicles (7), even the 1996 and 2002 (during compressor replacements). I also use PAO 68 oil, which is best for any refrigerant. All refrigerants can burn when there is a leak, since the oil sprays as a mist and all oils are flammable. Most refrigerants also burn. R-134A forms poisonous phosgene gas (used by Germans in WWI). The new R-1234yc forms an extremely corrosive gas which etched the windshield when M-B ran tests (~2014?), simulating a leak impinging on a turbo exhaust pipe. As a result, M-B refused to ship their cars to France with it, installing the outlawed R-134A instead which upset the regulators. R-134A is a potent "climate change" gas and outlawed in most western countries.

Duracool and Envirosafe are strictly hydrocarbons (propane, butane, ...). It is legal in CA and many progressive states. States that outlaw HC refrigerants are mainly bowing to lobbying by AC shops. If concerned, pour some on the ground and light it like I did. It burns very weakly like candle wax, since must evaporate first and the liquid is cold. It takes only 12 oz to fill your 300D system, so a newspaper seems more dangerous to me. The VW TDI guy sounds like a gomer who never turned a wrench. His condenser most likely leaked because he left no pressure in the system for a year, the PAG oil absorbed moisture (forms acids) which quickly corroded his aluminum condenser. He then flamed Duracool when it later leaked. HC's don't cause corrosion, dude. I would have blown him off too, and one reason I would hate selling to the un-schooled "public".

BillGrissom · #30 06-23-2017, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

... No accidents in which hydrocarbon refrigerant caused damage or injury due to its flammability have been reported ..."

Pretty much, except an AC guy in Australia got some press by staging a combustion event w/ HC refrigerant. Duracool long ago paid for an engineering analysis which calculated that even if the full charge leaked into the passenger compartment in 5 min, with no outside air exchange, even that would not form a combustible mixture. Add to that you would need a spark, you would first smell the mercaptin (scent added to natural gas), even tight houses exchange their air w/ outside every hour (cars are leakier), plus most refrigerant leaks would be in the engine bay where hoses degrade faster.