Feasability?- CDI drivetrain swapped into E320 wagon - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

ROLLGUY · #1 07-22-2018, 08:16 PM

Knowing how cool the W211 wagons are, and that they were only equipped with a gas engine for the North American market, would it be feasible to swap an entire drivetrain from an '05 CDI into an '04-'06 E320 wagon (Estate)?
I actually have the CDI donor car (my '05 was involved in a collision the other day-side swipe). Although the wagons are a lot harder to find, they are not that pricey (I have seen nice ones for $3,500-$5,000). Knowing that my CDI is probably repairable, I bought a drive-able parts car (gas) for the body parts (it too has body damage, but in different parts than my CDI) and interior parts (air bags, door panels etc).

My thought was to either (1)- use the parts car to fix my CDI, and sell the running car without the donor parts, or (2)- buy a wagon, install everything needed to make it run with the Diesel engine, AND use the good body and interior parts from the CDI to make the gas E320 sell-able.
Both the gas E and the CDI share the same exterior and interior colors. However, the interior of the gas E is worn and dirty. It would need most everything from the interior of the CDI to make it nice. One wheel on the CDI was damaged in the collision, but the parts E came with fairly NEW tires and custom wheels (photo later). Another thing the gas E will need is the SBC module. I bought the gas E at night, and made the deal before actually driving it (the seller drove the car and met me half way at a friends house to make the deal), so I did not know that the bright red SBC warning was on the instrument cluster until I went to move it from the street to the driveway. My bad. At any rate, the parts I need plus the way cool wheels and tires are well worth what I paid. I also did not have to drive three hours (only 1 1/2) to get it! I was going to catch a ride with my brother (he is working on our friends house) to pick the car up tomorrow, but because of the brake problem, I will have it towed. I don't feel safe driving it 100 miles without brakes.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcomed. I know the engine swap would be a very ambitious task, but would be worth it in the long run.

97 SL320 · #2 07-22-2018, 08:31 PM

Making a swap between same body and having a complete donor car makes any of this much more viable regardless of brand.

Some issues will be:

If you have emission testing for gas cars, getting an exemption may be difficult. In some states this requires an inspection and a rebuilt title brand.

If the vin lives in the dash / air bag or other computer, it might not like the donor engine computer.

ROLLGUY · #3 07-22-2018, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Making a swap between same body and having a complete donor car makes any of this much more viable regardless of brand.

Some issues will be:

If you have emission testing for gas cars, getting an exemption may be difficult. In some states this requires an inspection and a rebuilt title brand.

If the vin lives in the dash / air bag or other computer, it might not like the donor engine computer.

I was wondering abut VIN coded components. I can't imagine that the instrument cluster holds the mileage and other VIN specific info, but it could be possible. I would think that the SAM's are VIN coded, so either way, they would go with the drivetrain. I am sure the ignition switch would have to go with the drivetrain as well.

sixto · #4 07-22-2018, 11:17 PM

Have you found a 211 wagon that isn’t 4matic? They’re rare birds around here.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon
02 C320 wagon

ROLLGUY · #5 07-23-2018, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

Have you found a 211 wagon that isn’t 4matic? They’re rare birds around here.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon
02 C320 wagon

Out of the dozen that I have seen for sale around the country, only about five were NOT 4matic. There is one for sale up north (CA), and it is one of the colors I would accept. I don't want a silver or black car. I just missed a really nice blue one from a place called Euro Code in Rocklin CA. It is on their website. Sold for $4,000 out the door.

tjts1 · #6 07-23-2018, 12:35 AM

Is it really worth the effort? The m112 is an excellent engine. Parting out the CDI could go a long way to funding the wagon purchase.

Keep in mind that the engine must be same model year or newer than the body it's going into. That limits you to 04 and 05 wagons.

ROLLGUY · #7 07-23-2018, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Is it really worth the effort? The m112 is an excellent engine. Parting out the CDI could go a long way to funding the wagon purchase.

Keep in mind that the engine must be same model year or newer than the body it's going into. That limits you to 04 and 05 wagons.

Being a Diesel guy, the CDI has much more appeal to me. Yes the wagon is cool, and I even thought I might keep it a gasser for a while until I know for sure the swap can be done. If I find out that the swap can't be done, I will just pull the parts from the gasser and fix the CDI.

If I end up pulling the air bags and controller from the parts car, how much of a job will that be? I do know that both batteries in both cars will need to be disconnected, and then the components can be removed. However, I would need to know (and follow) the exact procedure for installing everything safely. I just don't know what that procedure is.

As far as purchasing a wagon, I have plenty of funds to do so. The insurance company has been very fair in compensating me for my loss. Buying the car back was a bargain as well.

jay_bob · #8 07-23-2018, 07:31 AM

Do these models have the 722.6 or 722.9 transmission?

You may have a serious uphill climb getting all the electronics to talk to each other.

For sure the engine controller, transmission controller, instrument cluster, and key switch all have to match.

722.6 the transmission controller is outboard of the transmission, and the transmission itself just has sensors and actuators. You will have to re-learn the adaptations but at least a different transmission computer will talk to a 722.6.

722.9 the controller is integrated into the conductor plate and locked to the VIN as stored in the other main modules.

I suspect the second level modules (air bag, SAMs, door controllers, seat controllers, entertainment) will not be as much a problem since they are not coded TRPs in EPC and I've heard of people swapping these modules with no issues without having to do SCN coding (the coding that has to phone home). Regular version coding in Xentry can be done with a cloned laptop and multiplexer since it does not phone home.

tjts1 · #9 07-23-2018, 10:40 AM

W211 E320 all have 722.6

Don Andres · #10 07-23-2018, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

Do these models have the 722.6 or 722.9 transmission?

You may have a serious uphill climb getting all the electronics to talk to each other.

For sure the engine controller, transmission controller, instrument cluster, and key switch all have to match.

722.6 the transmission controller is outboard of the transmission, and the transmission itself just has sensors and actuators. You will have to re-learn the adaptations but at least a different transmission computer will talk to a 722.6.

722.9 the controller is integrated into the conductor plate and locked to the VIN as stored in the other main modules.

I suspect the second level modules (air bag, SAMs, door controllers, seat controllers, entertainment) will not be as much a problem since they are not coded TRPs in EPC and I've heard of people swapping these modules with no issues without having to do SCN coding (the coding that has to phone home). Regular version coding in Xentry can be done with a cloned laptop and multiplexer since it does not phone home.

I agree. There are electronic components (i.e. instrument cluster, external transmission controller,...) that cannot be accessed unless you have diagnostics computer and access to the factory database - which means a trip to the dealership. My local dealership charges $160/hour and they are not shy about writing up as many hours as they can.

Many of the late model components are designed to not be easily swappable. The reason I was told is to reduce theft of cars for parts sales. I would guess it is also to support the dealerships.....

97 SL320 · #11 07-23-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I agree. There are electronic components (i.e. instrument cluster, external transmission controller,...) that cannot be accessed unless you have diagnostics computer and access to the factory database - which means a trip to the dealership. My local dealership charges $160/hour and they are not shy about writing up as many hours as they can.

Are you aware how much an actual Xentry system and annual updates cost?

I'm guessing a smaller dealer will have at least 2 systems and a larger one 4 - 6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Many of the late model components are designed to not be easily swappable. The reason I was told is to reduce theft of cars for parts sales. I would guess it is also to support the dealerships.....

. . Or to lower insurance costs for car owners.

If you think MB is bad, do some searching on the net and U tube for Tesla repair access.

Don Andres · #12 07-23-2018, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Are you aware how much an actual Xentry system and annual updates cost?

I'm guessing a smaller dealer will have at least 2 systems and a larger one 4 - 6.

. . Or to lower insurance costs for car owners.

If you think MB is bad, do some searching on the net and U tube for Tesla repair access.

I don't think MB dealerships are particularly bad - from what I have seen in the market most brands are up there these days.

I do not want to pay this much because breakdowns and expensive repairs have become all too common based on my personal experience. Repairs on my '06 and '08 Mercedes have cost over $14k in 15 months. Definitely way too much money combined with lousy reliability to hold on to them. Both are 120-130k miles and I have them serviced regularly. These cars have too many parts -in my experience- that are prone to failure and once they're past a certain age/mileage become too expensive to maintain.

I remember my Mercedes cars from the 70s, 80s and 90s being very reliable with proper maintenance, even with high mileage. So I'm going back to that, focusing on clean W126 and W124 models. I don't mind not driving the latest and greatest. We'll see how I'll do with those. They are likely going to have repair needs too but it won't be failing computers that cause all 4 wheels to lock up or leaking air struts or steering angle sensors or intake manifolds that have non-replaceable plastic parts on them.... and on goes the list.

Mercedes is probably one of the finest new car money can buy but I'm not willing to spend that much money on a car. They just depreciate too quickly. Buying a 10 year old one and have reliable wheels doesn't seem to be an option anymore so I'm trying something else. YMMV

tjts1 · #13 07-23-2018, 07:02 PM

If you had both complete cars side by side you could swap all the electronic components from the CDI into the wagon. The only real difference is the rear tailgate. You could do it without xentry. A simple icarsoft would be enough to Id compatibility, read live data and clear any codes that might pop up.

I've seen people do C32 and C55 drivetrain into a c240 wagon in their garage without issue. This isn't much different. I'm still not convinced this is a worthwhile endeavor but it's certainly not impossible for the average DIYer.

97 SL320 · #14 07-24-2018, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I don't think MB dealerships are particularly bad

Doesn't sound like it from your prior post.

Given you didn't answer the Xentry pricing question I'll answer it for you. Last I checked it was $ 20,000 to buy one system and $ 6,000 per year to keep it active. If the subscription is canceled it will brick after a few months.

I'd figure a small dealer will have 2 systems and larger one 4 to 6. Who pays for this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I do not want to pay this much because breakdowns and expensive repairs have become all too common based on my personal experience.

You do realize that there are people that are saying the same thing about a recent $ 14,000 Chevy spark? I've heard this same line over the past 4 decades across all makes even though the lifespan of a car has steadily gone up.

Something else to consider, a regular car costs X and a MB some multiplier of X so repair costs will be higher. The cost to buy a used car might go down but cost of repair won't regardless of the brand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Repairs on my '06 and '08 Mercedes have cost over $14k in 15 months. Definitely way too much money combined with lousy reliability to hold on to them. Both are 120-130k miles and I have them serviced regularly. These cars have too many parts -in my experience- that are prone to failure and once they're past a certain age/mileage become too expensive to maintain.

At 12 years / 130 K miles the car has fulfilled it's primary mission regarding the first and second owners whom likely owned the car for 4 years each. Your solution would be to buy new / CPO and turn it every 4 years, it all comes down to cost per mile.

The amount of electronics in a modern car regardless of brand is staggering. All it takes is the failure of one small part to take down an entire sub system. All of this resides in a hostile environment of heat / cold / rapid temperature swings / vibration / shock.

Think about the physical stresses to electronics when a the interior of a car sitting in the sun goes from 110 *F to 70*F over a few minutes. Or from below zero to 75. I haven't even touched on the range of under hood temps. . .

Electronic components are rated from low to high as Consumer / Industrial / Automotive / Military, this should tell you something about the automotive environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I remember my Mercedes cars from the 70s, 80s and 90s being very reliable with proper maintenance, even with high mileage. So I'm going back to that, focusing on clean W126 and W124 models.

With less to break, reliability might be greater regardless of brand however, age takes it toll.

Our guy below thinks the 90's were bad so take them of your list.

Quote:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/vintage-mercedes/394229-why-did-mb-name-c63.html

Post 6

Come to think of it, the '90s weren't a very good time for anything Mercedes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I don't mind not driving the latest and greatest. We'll see how I'll do with those. They are likely going to have repair needs too but it won't be failing computers that cause all 4 wheels to lock up or leaking air struts or steering angle sensors or intake manifolds that have non-replaceable plastic parts on them.... and on goes the list.

Rapid depreciation should be a tip off that the car might not be a good value to the general public. A complicated car that is $ to repair will have a very low residual value. Think of it this way, you are getting a high end car at a discount but need to spend some $ to keep it going, this is cost of ownership that many overlook.

My 97 SL 320 Sport was about $ 90 K new, bought it in 2011 for $ 6,000 and immediately installed about $ 2,500 in _parts_ to get it to my standards. Currently it has an external coolant leak at the head gasket and I want to rebuild the transmission as a preventive measure.

Even with all of this and adjusted for inflation, I'm about at what the original owner would have paid in _sales tax_. I consider this a pretty good deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Mercedes is probably one of the finest new car money can buy but I'm not willing to spend that much money on a car. They just depreciate too quickly. Buying a 10 year old one and have reliable wheels doesn't seem to be an option anymore so I'm trying something else. YMMV

Try a Toyota / Honda but don't expect the body to resist rust very much.

vwnate1 · #15 08-13-2018, 11:33 AM

Be *very* cautions here Rich ~ I've been down this road, we're both in California and the AQMD / CARB hates to re certify engine swaps of any typ, more so Diesels from Gassers .

The issue isn't making it pass every emissions test, that's just labor & time and lots of it ~ the # 1 issue is the VIN that tells the State's smog test computer "this car is gasoline" ~ the DMV's computers will know this and even -if- you get the document allowing you to skip the annual smog testing, the DMV's computer will flag it for verification inspection every renewal ~ loose that certificate and you're screwed, no copies allowed and they flat refuse to issue new ones if yours gets lost damaged .

I hate to be a downer here but I've seen many great projects get finished then forced to be scrapped or sold out of state at a dead lo$$ because of failure to understand just how difficult it is to make it legal .