Oh by the way, in regards to the changing designs, are you kidding me?

You see a 1990 300E, it looks the same as a 2001, ... NOT.
You see a S series from the early 90's, looks the same as a 2001,...NOT.

I can put my 1994 ES300 next to a 2001 ES300 and I bet it would take a second glance to tell the difference. In fact I could do that with a 1992 ES300. The GS has not changed much either, nor the LS. No more than MB has changed over the years.

Speaking of changes, this is an interesting and tear jerking read:

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=27026&dm=yes&c=1

So we will see the line between Chryslers and MB's become smaller and smaller. Some choice quotes from this article:

"At the time of the merger, Mercedes was adamant that never the twain shall meet," Alan Baum, an auto analyst at industry forecasting company Planning Edge told Bloomberg News. "I think finances are now pushing them towards a middle ground."

"Bloomberg added that DaimlerChrysler officials said at the time of the 1998 merger that they wouldn't jeopardise the Mercedes-Benz brand by sharing major vehicle components with Chrysler."

"However, the company has since said that the two divisions would use some common major components to reduce costs and improve the quality of some Chrysler products."

"The need to cut costs at the money-losing U.S. unit overrode fears of diluting the Mercedes brand, he added."

I bet in the near future we see Chrysler parts in MB's to save money from the floundering Chrysler, just an opinion, but we will see what happens.

Dressed up Toyota? Lets see what the future brings for Chrys...erm I mean Mercedes.






[Edited by spinedoc on 04-19-2001 at 07:12 PM]

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=15958&c=1

This article is titled:
"USA: Number of Automotive Recalls Impacts Owner Loyalty; Mercedes-Benz and Toyota Motor Sales Have Fewest Recalls"

I havent seen the full text of the article, as I am not a member of this site. But just a little tidbit on how comparable Chrys..erm Mercedes and Toyota are.

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

Spinedoc,
Wow, you are really trying to your hardest to defend Lexus? The evidence I provided is factual, as is yours, they were merely different ways of comparing them.
Nonetheless, Mercedes still came out on top, correct? And so you try and justify the "fine line" deal. Facts are facts, even if that crashtest is not all that accurate.
Best thing for you to do is ride in your Lexus, be happy, and we'll give you a few years in the "dressed-up Toyota." Seems like a more appropriate car to fit who you are anyway. Have a good day.

__________________
2006 E350 w/ 155k miles (Daily Driver)

Previous:
1993 300E 3.2L Sedan w/ close to about 300k miles
2003 E500 Brilliant Silver (Had 217k miles when totalled!)
1989 300E with 289,000 miles (had for <1 yr while in HI)
03 CLK 500 cabrio (Mom's)
2006 C230k (Dad's)
1999 S420 (Mom's/Dad's)
2000 C230k Sport sedans
2001 CLK320 Cabrio (Mom's)
1995 C280 My First Mercedes-Benz... (155k miles. EXCEPTIONAL AUTOMOBILE. Was Very hard to let go of!)

The saddest part is that you are not reading my posts.

I said "Mercedes are great, Lexus are very good"

I said (again and again and again) that I was not saying one was better than the other, just that they are very comparable.

I said that the Mercedes edged out the Lexus in the safety tests, again and again and again I said it.

So whats the deal? I guess I just dont understand.

But I will keep my dressed up toyota, and I will buy another Mercedes because I still love them also. The reason for this post was not to defend Lexus, I could car less about either car company. The point was to prove that just by saying "Lexus sucks, Mercedes is the best", or by saying "My aunts cousins friend had a Lexus that blew an engine at 120K miles" does not in any way provide any facts or insights to a friendly discussion. In fact I can add my own story about the major major piece of crap Mercedes I own. But that would only tell you about one particular Mercedes, and would not and should NOT be representative of all Mercedes.

Additionally, as I have stated the crash tests are pretty much the most reliable things out there other than some very specific studies that I can post. In fact the crash tests are some of the most favorable studies for the MB, whereas the majority of the other ones, if not all, place the MB as an average car for its weight and size class. Additionally the other arguments I used still stand.

Bottom line, and please read it carefully so I dont have to repeat it 100 times more. ---Mercedes and Lexus are very comparable in terms of reliability and safety, with some categories that are won by one or the other.---

So we both can have Chrys...erm I mean Mercedes. Dont take it too personally please, just the facts.

[Edited by spinedoc on 04-19-2001 at 10:50 PM]

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

What I hate is the plethora of women now named "Lexus" because people are too damn dirt-ignorant to understand that the name should be "Lexis", an abbreviation of "Alexis". Which in itself is an derivation of Alexandra.

Also, please note that "Spinedoc" has been a member since 1999, and his posts haven't surpassed 120 yet. There is something to be said for listening to a man of few words, and apparently, of supreme passion on this subject.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

I have refrained from reading this thread, and now that it is old, decided to drop in for a read, and I have only one question:

Longston, is that your house in the distance?

__________________
Brian W.

01 S55 AMG Silver
01 CLK55 AMG Silver

Spinedoc:
In my mind scoring well in performance tests, crash tests, reliability, comfort, etc. does not amount to a 'great car,' but to a 'great transportation appliance.' A great car goes beyond the measurable and brings out the passion in us. My analogy may have been flawed; my point is that even if a Lexus or any other car 'rates' as well as or better than a Mercedes, for me, I'd still prefer the Mercedes because, again for me, a Mercedes pushes the right buttons to be exciting, entertaining, and fun to drive. The durability, safety, etc. are just icing on the cake.

I've only driven two Lexus models, a '91 LS400 and '92 ES300. I found both to have silky smooth engines, very quiet, smooth ride, and overall very nicely finished. But honestly, I felt like I was driving a nice Camry, not to put down the Camry, only to say that both Lexus models felt 'ordinary' to me.

Just my opinion.

__________________
Glen Tokuhara
Beauty & the Beast and the wagon that could!

Go to the "longston" thread for your answer...

I wish, brother, I wish...

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

As an outsider looking in, I can see why you all drive and love your Mercedes. You are as arrogant as the dealers you buy them from.

Until the day that Mercedes looses their God complex and doesn't act as though they are doing me a favor to purchase one of their cars, I will not be buying one.

I'm sure that some day they will, but of course, I might as well just buy the Chrysler version instead.

OK,

I am not making this up, I swear!

Yesterday I was driving home and what did I see coming towards me in the opposite lane?

The 88' Acura JCE mentioned prior, being towed by a pre 85' 300 Diesel by a rope! The Acura had its guts dragging on the ground, poor lady.

Talk about syncronicity!

I have to comment on the main topic as well. When my wife and I where shopping for a newer luxury car 2 years ago, I had narrowed my search to a Lexus GS300, LS400, or newer ES300 as I wanted a commuter car that could take the highway miles I intended on accumulating.

The problem came when looking at the interiors of these cars. The seats where always cracked and wore out, the plastic was scratches up and damaged, and exterior trim was not keeping up with the whole package in terms of aging. Every LS400 had problems with the driveline such as vibrations of transmission anomolies. They seemed like nice cars, but you always had this nagging feeling in the back of your head that major $$ was right around the cornere to bring the car up to acceptable condition.

Truth be known, I had never even considered a Mercedes as the "Image" in entailed, it never crossed my mind. It had cross Ashley's mind though, when we spotted a C280 on the other side of the lot one day when car hunting she just walked past the ES300 and went right to the Benz.

After driving both cars, the choice was easy, the Mercedes was a better driving machine and actually had a Soul. Needless to say, we bought the Mercedes and have never regretted the decision. Maintanence was a non-issue as a regular schedule is no more than a Japanese car.

This is of course only opinion here, but both are excellent machines compared to other car companies out there producing JUNK! Lexus engineers can not be expected to be innovator's as they where new to the game, so see what worked and copying it was the next best thing, nothing really wrong with that, thats just the state of things.

One thing is for sure, Mercedes is in our blood for life!

Look one thing is for sure. If things continue (at Daimler Chrysler) they way they are going, then M-B will quickly become a inferior vehicle to Lexus. If M-B becomes a dressed up 300M or Neon, then they will fall far short of Lexus.

The Mercedes untill 2000-2001 were better cars than the Lexus untill that model year. Now with M-B cutting back on quality and design, and Lexus getting better at both, M-B is quickly loosing its grip on the best auto mark. I will have Benz's from the late 90's in years to come, because I love build quality! Those cars had it. The new ones are not that great as they once were. Its terribly sad, I admit, I grew up in these cars and its a shame at what D-C is coming to.

I might try a Lexus in the future, however, I will always love the Benz, and have a Benz.

Spindoc, the best to you and you're Lexus Let us informed about its durability and reliability.

__________________
"Damn the torpedos, four bells full speed ahead"
-Admiral Farragut




-1987 300E Smoke Silver
-1997 S320 Black on Black
-Soon To be E55 AMG
-27 foot Grady White Offshore Sportfish.

"What I hate is the plethora of women now named "Lexus" because people are too damn dirt-ignorant to understand that the name should be "Lexis", an abbreviation of "Alexis". Which in itself is an derivation of Alexandra."

OMG I almost fell off my chair, that is so true. Not to offend anyone actually named Lexus (Or Mercedes for that matter, although Mercedes was a proper name before the car company was formed), but I just have to laugh whenever I say "may I please speak to Lexus?", expecting a vroom vroom, or beep beep on the other end of the line.

"A great car goes beyond the measurable and brings out the passion in us. My analogy may have been flawed; my point is that even if a Lexus or any other car 'rates' as well as or better than a Mercedes, for me, I'd still prefer the Mercedes because, again for me, a Mercedes pushes the right buttons to be exciting, entertaining, and fun to drive. The durability, safety, etc. are just icing on the cake. "

I could not agree with you more. Im glad the meaning of my posts are coming thru. As an appliance both autos are very comparable, as an inspirational driving machine, well it depends on the person. Dont think I dont get inspired by Mercedes cars guys, quite the opposite. I hate the look of the LS lexus and am very uninspired by it especially compared to the S series MB.

As for the "all the old Lexus models I saw had cracked trim, interior, worn leather, etc"...Bah! My 94 Lexus has 139,000 miles, and the interior is absolutely mint. There is not one broken trim piece, the leather is immaculate, the interior is just heavenly to look at. But thats just one car, as unrepresentative of the Lexus line as the 4 or 5 you looked at. Now go look at my MB, which has 160,000 miles on it, just 20,000 more than the Lexus. What an atrocity the interior is, broken trim, faded leather, faded plastic, everything falling apart, buttons hanging off, etc etc. I had a lot of the circuit boards resoldered just to work, like the climate control and the cruise control. Forget about the radio, that was scrapped a long time ago. Once again my car is not and should not be representative of the whole auto maker.

=)





[Edited by spinedoc on 04-20-2001 at 01:08 PM]

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

I should point out that most of the cars I was looking at where on a used car lot, so they where probably cars with the leases that where expired, so they where probably more beat up than a car taken care of by a loving owner.

Before purchasing my mercedes, I have always though about various high ended cars for years while saving up for it, really day dreaming. I have often hear verious friends and family members said that I was thinking about getting a mercedes they suggested that a Lexus maybe a better choice for the cost.

In terms for cost I believe they both are about the same price. what is a thousand here and there.

Reliability and durability for the engin and transmition they are all the same. Heck all cars get over 150,000 miles now of days even the ford escorts.

Interms of car trims although I believe even the newers mercedes have more solid structures like doors or roof racks , but they have some parts that are not up to historical mercedes standards, but only a few parts. But, the are anaying.

So, what do I think is the real difference. I think the real difference between the two company and their cars is how they approach in design and building their cars.

And when I attempt to point out their differences I am not saying they don't have elements of that charisteristic only they have less of it compare ot the other.

Lexus is the best in marketing and determining customer need and desires, and building products to fit that needs. They tend to be more sensitive to costomer feedback and really try to change to fit the changing costomer need. Classic approach in costomer service even in their engineering. Where as Merceses is an engineering driven company. They believe that if they design and build an engineering superior product people will buy it.

Case in point, some one pointed about safty enginnering between the two companies. My understanding is that Mercedes engineered car to be safty since the thirties. In the 60s, 70s, and even the 80s people in american did not have such great awareness for crash safe autos, mercedes still made it an engineering priority in their autos. This would not be a great selling point then, at that time people would not even put on seat belts, but they and it anyway. And what safty features did toyota had the very minimum, and why there is not additional sales in it. Take the case of the toyota Privia van. It was one of the worst crash tested vehical ever, but the replacement for that was the Seana Van replacement for the Privia had the best. Case in point, toyota had the engineering skills rources to made a safer van then the Privia, but did not choice to do so because their marketing people did not tell them that was a sales point in late 80 when the privia was on the drawing boards.

But Mercedes had their problems from their way of doing business too. For example on my brand New ML 320 with in 6 months the rear plastic pannel cracket and the rear windshield wiper did not work, I understand these are common problems on this car), and added to the fact that it takes a week to make an appointment. I think Mercedes really under scores this inpact on a costomer's annoiance, or thing like this. I don't beleive these small problems would have happen on a Lexus. I believe their attitude if this happen would be on the lexus would be this should not happen on our car and we will go through hell to make it right and relly do it.

That being said. I believe a Mercedes is much superior from an enginner and build stand point on most aspects it is just that you will notice it was much. Because Mercedes engineering don't "engineering" things for you to notice, and maybe will not need or ever notice it is missing. So as a consumer do you want to buy something that is "design" to fit your needs that your have express as a group if so get a Lexus. That is why it is so attractive to a lot of people. Or get a Mercedes that might have minor anoiancing (which could cost, couple hundered dollars to fix easy when out of warrentee)but may have very dramatic features in it that you don't even think about asking for.

And again these are degrees of the same spetrum.

Food for though. Who determines great engineering. Engineerings or costomers. Agin degrees of the same spetrum

__________________
Silver Honda Accord, 2006
Silver G500, 2003
Silver SLK-320, 2002
Black ML-320, 2000
Bule Porsche 993 Targa , 1997
Silver Merkur XR4Ti, 1987

I love my Mercedes, but I also love and deeply respect Toyota. Having owned a few Toyotas, I would have no problem buying their luxury line. I don't own any car for status or prestige, and having restored several Toyotas, I can tell you that the parts are made to last three times longer than any other parts. Quality, quality, quality. I have a good friend who always has a new Lexus through work, and I'm always very impressed. Lexus is a lovely car.