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  #1  
Old 12-23-2000, 01:03 PM
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I enjoy so much reading and following the trials and tribulations of enthusiastic automobile hobbiests. I try and help where I have easy knowledge, I often look up info I don't memorize. I enjoy it and it improves these capabilities which I use every day with 8 technicians asking similar questions.

I often am at a loss as to the direction my answer should take. My first response is to try to put the technical elements together for the questioner. But, I often wonder if the more appropriate advise would be to tell them how to find a good technician or evaluate their answers.

I often get follow-up, private, email for further consultation and, as in recently, I gather the info necessary to start analysis and transmit it. In this case I even located the MB information #s to purchase the appropriate literature from MB and gave the number to call. The total amount for the complete ASR Diagnostic Manual would have been about thirty dollars. I suggested that this be purchased and I would then help with its use and interpretation. I also pointed out that if they wanted me to dig up the info from my own sources that I would charge $70 and hour. The reply that I got seems to place very little value in my efforts.

I was told that the questioner had little money and would have to continue seeking advise from the forum.

I have thought about this for a few days. I'm not sure whether he thought I meant to charge him for further help. This was not my intent. My intent was to point out if he couldn't afford $30 to have the text necessary to proceed then it would cost me a lot more to assemble it for him.

Most of the posts that ask questions about performance can only be answered with diagnostic technique for me. To say this part or that part could be the answer is pointless except in rehashing "war stories". I would like to give help, instruction, training as necessary to achieve an answer, but if having the proper text is too expensive then my advise wastes my time.

Sorry for the rant. It was iniated this morning by reading a number of posts that raise this question: Do you want to be told whats wrong (impossible) or do you want to be told how to figure it out? Many obviously have no possibility of doing the diagnostics (lack of tools, lack of skills, lack of information).

Merry Christmas
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2000, 01:41 PM
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Steve:

You have discovered the dilemma that most teachers run into. Do we teach the student how to think and how resolve the problem themselves, (while recognizing that this must be done while introducing them to subjects, ideas, and technologies they have never before seen), or do we teach them how to memorize the "correct" answer to each different problem to program into their brain and use forever. This last approach means that we have to gloss over the fact that there sometimes is no single "correct" answer, or that the wrong questions are being asked to resolve the problem, or that the problem is resolved only by doing 2 or more "correct" things.

Most teachers would rather teach the student how to find answers, but a large number of students would rather be told what they "need to know". The difference in philosophy between teacher and student causes conflicts, resentment, and interferes with learning. Attempts to explain the differences in approach cause the student to think he or she is being called stupid, and the teacher to feel that he/she is being called arrogant or unfeeling, and closed-minded about the students ideas (sometimes naive, often quite good, and occasionally brilliant!).

The attitude of wanting to be just told what they "need to do" was often most apparent in students who were not majoring in the subject being taught, but were taking it as a required course or elective. Their attitude seemed to be "I save my thinking for my career field, and don't have enough time in my busy life to learn how to think about a temporary problem in this secondary part of my life. I just want the problem solved so I can get back to my work, so tell me what pill to take, Doc, and make the problem go away".

I never found a perfect balance that worked with every student. They were all different, and for every student that caused frustration, there was one that gave me great pride in the results obtained. I don't think anyone has ever found the answer, or if they have, I haven't seen it shared. I think all we can do (we are all simultaneously teachers and students throughout our life) is recognize that different approaches may or may not work with different people.

Sorry for the rant, have a great holiday.




[Edited by JCE on 12-23-2000 at 12:51 PM]
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2000, 01:59 PM
Deezel
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Steve,
I am sure I speak for the vast majority of the members. Your advice, insight, guidance, and opinions are very highly valued. The personal time you spend to educate us is not taken lightly. I know that I also spend more time than I should monitoring this board and providing advice whenever I can, even if it is only dry humor, in an effort to repay my debts to others that have helped me amd to keep them coming back as a resource for my future needs. My time has been very minimal compared to what you have provided and I would hate to loose this resource.

Unfortunately, there is very little that us hacks can offer to you in return other than to express our gratitude, use your resources with respect and only when necessary or offered.

In my opinion, this forum us not to save us money. It is to grow our knowledge, confidence, increase our satisfaction with the car and our own abilities, and get us out of binds (car dead on a weekend). Saving money may be a by product. Buying the tools, manuals etc needed to do these tasks goes without saying. Finding the sources for some of these specialty tools is the great thing about this forum. Having insider info from a tech like you who has access to data that is not within our means, such as the specialty data you spend big bucks on, is wonderful and very generous of you.

Any public forum (how about congress?) has people who are not in step, way to the left or right, or just plain uniformed. Please excuse their ignorance and focus on the people who provide the feedback on how much you have helped.

I don't want a fish sandwich, please teach me to fish!

Season's Greetings!
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  #4  
Old 12-23-2000, 02:23 PM
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Deezel:

Very well put, indeed!
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2000, 02:35 PM
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Steve, you ar not ranting, just venting... and understandably so.

Steve,

I feel compelled to write on this subject matter. There are many types of people that are automobile enthusiasts, the vast majority of which do not posses a tremendous amount of technical knowledge. (No offense intended to anyone.) There are also many enthusiasts that have a limited knowledge of how their vehicles operate, although their technical knowledge may be limited to which parts function for certain purposes. These people do not necessarily understand the concepts and theories behind the operation of those parts, nor interactions thereof. (Again, no offense intended – i.e., I personally may know what brain surgery IS, although I in no way profess to understand the nuances of the various procedures.)

There also exists a small population of hard core enthusiasts that strive to understand the technical theories & functions of the various subsystems. I myself am not an engineer or automotive professional, however my curiosity and intuitive understanding of mechanical systems leads me to learn as much as possible, either through the direct receipt of information, or through the process of deductive reasoning. I find it to be great fun to figure out how things work, and WHY they work. There lies the difference. >WHY< That is where you excel, the WHY.

Your postings have consistently been the most fascinating for me to read on this forum. It is clear that your knowledge comes not only from experience, but also from an innate understanding of mechanical (& electrical) system theory. At times, it is frustrating for a master of any subject matter to impart their knowledge to persons that may not comprehend the implications of everything said by the master. It is also frustrating to feel as though one is taken for granted, especially when trying to help others. Your selflessness in spending your valuable time in helping people on this forum is GREATLY appreciated. Your expenditure of even more time looking up information for others is most deeply appreciated by persons that recognize that your time is valuable (time is money…) and that you are not being compensated (financially) for your time. Compensation comes in the form of knowing that you are helping others, a concept that is unfortunately somewhat rare in today’s society. (I spend a great deal of time in helping people on a forum related to a specific medical condition; it feels good )

I can only hope that you do not become discouraged by some of your experiences here. I hope that the positives will greatly offset the negatives. Your absence from this forum would leave a gaping hole that few others could hope to fill. I know that others here must feel the same way, whether or not it is communicated directly!

With all sincerity, I hope that you have a GREAT holiday, and a happy & healthy new year!
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2000, 02:37 PM
WmHarlow
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Deezel,
Can you hear the applause?
I sure hope Steve can!
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2000, 04:25 PM
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Thanks for the kind words. I really blew it on this post. I didn't get my point across too well and I think I sounded discouraged or maybe upset. I wasn't, I think JCE might have understood that I was really trying to come up with some answers to the frustration I feel trying to help when I don't know the capabilities both tooling and experience wise that are available to those with problems.

In other words, do I continue with elaborate diagnostic strategy intended for use or do I explain that this can't be done by those asking?

I still am not sure I know what I am saying here but I am not aggravated at anyone or anything; just at a loss as to how to answer the question technically when I obviously go beyond capabilities.
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2000, 04:42 PM
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My Feeling is this, if you are taking your time to give out information, then you are providing a service that I think most people will appreciate.

I enjoy reading all the posts here just about, in fact I almost live on this board, and I can tell you I see more helpful information being passed on than non helpful.

Sure there are the flame posts that get out of hand sometimes, and thats always going to happen when people get together. Not everyone will get along.

In the case of giving out detailed technical info that might not be understood, well if I see something I don't understand I look it up. Ever been reading and come across a word you didn't know? What did you do, you looked it up in the dictionary. This is how things are done when you don't understand something you look it up.

If I post a subject on a problem I'm having, and you give me the mst technical response, whether I understand it or not, I make a point to understand it by researching what I was told.

If you were to hit me with some detailed description of something that I read and was like whats this thingy he mentioned or whats that thingy he pointed out, then I would do what was needed to learn about it.

In my industry, I'm plagued with so much technical jargon, I can easily overwhelm my clients because they have no idea what I am talking about, of course this does help when it comes time for them to pay the bill because if it sounds too technical it must cost more.

I am sure almost everyone if not everyone will agree with me when I say that people like you steve, are the reason I stay on this board and keep coming back for more. Your willingness to provide assistance to us in need of it has created a community I am proud to say I'ma part of.

I'm not a tech, and I probably wont be one, but I have found that the knowledge I have gained in here has helped me more than anything.

I had no idea what a flex disc was, I had no idea platinum plugs werent recommended, I had no idea on how to do this or that, but because of people like you sharing your knowledge, I feel that I am almost ready to buy a nice classic benz that needs a complete restoration. I want to get a classic benz, strip it down to the frame, and rebuild the whole thing, from the ground up. Without this board and people like you, I would never be able to handle a job like that on my own, but having you guys here, I know that if I were to tackle a big project like that, I'd be able to find out all the information I would need to get the job done, and get it done right.

I still have no idea about how an engine or trans really works, but I learn more each day, and I learn more because of people like you.

Keep up the good work. I know that I don't E-mail people on this forum much, because I feel that if they wanted to be bothered by me, well they'd just read a post I put up and reply to it hehe.

Alon
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2000, 04:51 PM
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Sorry to be so blunt, but...

Indeed, the toughest part of trying to help someone help themselves is in assessing their capabilities. Most people tend to overestimate their capabilities, but asking if someone is capable of certain procedures may be helpful. Many times, it seems possible to glean some insight or information based upon the nature of the persons’ posting or response…other than that, it’s pretty much a crap shoot.

Please do continue with your helpful ‘elaborate diagnostic strategy’ when it is apparent that it will be time well spent & not wasted upon those that may not be able to follow you.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2000, 04:52 PM
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Steve:

The compromise I eventually reached was to continue trying to teach students to think through the problem, giving guidance as needed, until either their or my patience limit was reached. I would then show them how to solve the simplest example of the problem at hand, explaining the thought process used in solving the problem.

Usually before that point was reached, they had decided that they weren't going to be handed the answer on a platter, and either started thinking, or looked for someone else to do it for them. Not every student wants to learn, and even some of the ones who want to learn unfortunately do not have the skills necessary for learning, or the ability to acquire those skills.

From reading your many posts and descriptions, I think you would probably have made a pretty damn good teacher, and I enjoy learning from your posts. Spending too much of your time and resources on the ones who can't or won't try to learn from them will just frustrate you, and will divert your attention from the rest of your "eager students". The pinch is, only you can decide how much time is too much!
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  #11  
Old 12-23-2000, 05:34 PM
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Steve you have helped

me out on more than one occasion and I, along with most of the posters on this board, are very appreciative. Based on replys to some of my questions you can get down into the complex detail in a hurry and I would imagine that sometimes you probably get over a persons head real fast. Don't stop!!! I may be a pain in the butt but I am very persistant and will keep asking until I get the answer that I understand. I have learned over the years that you can't go wrong doing it this way. I may even start asking some questions about chloride embrittlement in 316SS piping one day
just kidding - keep up the good work
take care and have a Merry Christmas.
engatwork
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'97 Honda CRV
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  #12  
Old 12-23-2000, 05:37 PM
Deezel
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We love you man, but you're not getting our Bud Light!!!!!!
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  #13  
Old 12-23-2000, 06:31 PM
roas
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Steve,


I feel a little saddened that this post is a direct result of my ASR problem I am having and my requests for your assistance via Email.

Perhaps I am in over my head in regards to my diagnostic's abilities and of the system in question, I can easily admit that and do. Perhaps I should have started my Email request with a brief rundown on my mechanical knowledge as well as what I am trying to achieve? That way I could have saved us both some time and energy?

I think you may have misread my last Email reply, based upon your interpretation and your points stated. I did not say the manuals where a waste of time, or that your advise was not of valuable, what I meant to say was that the manuals would take more time than I would have wanted to wait, and because of that, I would see if I could obtain more information from the past archive material available here.

This is one reason that MercedesShop is so valuable, a wealth of information is available to all for free, not for $30 dollars or whatever the publisher is charging, call me cheap but if I can find something right now and free vs. waiting a week or two and paying money for something I might only use once or twice, the choice is easy. Your suggestion was to purchase the manuals and go from there. At least for me the choice is easy, I do not do this as a profession and only attempt "the easy stuff". If a code points me to a "pluck and chuck" type of fix and is electrical, I'll do it myself. The mechanic I use still has his backlog and no damage is done.

I would like you to know that I do greatly appreciate the effort you put forth in providing the Mercedes reference #'s for the manuals and the drawing you provided, I will be purchasing these shortly to avoid any future misunderstandings.

Lastly, I would like to apologize for any time of yours I may have wasted in this whole process and would like to also say that you are a highly regarded authority on these machines and that is why I came to you in the first place and that is why others will continue to come to you.

I hope I have not turned you away from the other issues which require your assistance!

To everyone at MercedesShop,

Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.

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  #14  
Old 12-23-2000, 07:05 PM
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I really need to stick to technical issues I guess. I really have been misinterpreted. I have no problem with anyone.

My problem I guess is whether or not to go into detail. I have no problem with doing this, but there often comes a point where there has to be some homework. I can't fix the problem without the car. I may be able to instruct someone to do such, but in this case the next step was text. Someone had to have the info card in front of them to do the next step. I could continue to gather and transmit each document but my time becomes wasted at that point.

To go where we were going a map was needed. I even need the map when I take the journey. I have no problem with people not wanting to go this far but I was afraid that I might loose a bull in a china store by hand feeding each item of info. Reference material is absolutely necessary to do this work. There are only simple answers if you've been there before. Maybe the most serious feeling was that I might make this seem so simple that one might hurt one's self.
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  #15  
Old 12-23-2000, 07:15 PM
lobito
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I think that eventhough most of us do not work as car techs, in our heart we are. We are curious on what is happening to our cars, and with the great help of this forum we even help the techs that work in our cars to stay within the problem. This avoids guessing on their part and saves us money and time. I really enjoy this forum, and hope stays the way it is or evem improves more.

Thanks
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