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  #1  
Old 02-25-2001, 12:29 AM
glmoy
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Hello,
I guess the coolant debate continues.......
I have a 1 gallon of MBZ Coolant in front of me, part number
Q 1003 0002 it is comprised of, the following ingredients:
Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1)
Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6)
Sodium Tetaborate (1303-96-4)
Sodium Benzoate (535-32-1)
Corrosion Inhibitors, Defoamers, Silicates, and Dyes

Made in U.S.A. for MERCEDES-BENZ OF NORTH AMERICA, INC.
MONTVALE, NEW JERSEY 07645
Q 1 03 0002

It is orange, and Corresponds to MB Specifications for
Service Product Sheet No.325.1

On the bottle it says Replace coolant solution every three
(3) years. Also, MB anticorrosion/antifreeze may only be
mixed with other manufacturer's agents provided that they
have been approved by MBNA.

The other thing that constantly amazes me is that to save
a few bucks considering the cost of MB engines and parts
that any one would use anything else.

BTW, This bottle costs about 12 bucks plus tax. Got it from
my local auto parts store.

Gary

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  #2  
Old 02-25-2001, 02:19 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Long Island, NY USA
Posts: 195
Okay, please allow me to throw another piece into the puzzle of orange v. green. I'm guessing that the MB orange coolant is the same basic formulation as the texaco "Dexcool". While I'm new to MB, I do have some experience with GM and they have problems with the Dexcool. Auto techs refer to the stuff as "Dexclog"! The stuff leave deposits in the cooling system and causes radiators and heater cores to clog up. After many TSB's, the current fix is to install a "T" fitting and back flush the system when it clogs.
Has anyone experienced clogging problems with the MB Stuff?
My 96 SS has the orange stuff, (Dexcool) and has been through 2 radiators and 2 heater cores (currently working on #3. Each time the items were replaced under warantee, but #3 is not covered. Many people (from the SS list) have switched to the green formula with excellent results, NO MORE CLOGS, and i'm going to do the same. The compatability issue is the same...can't mix 'em. The entire cooling system must be flushed out completely.
Gary
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96 DCM Impala SS
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  #3  
Old 02-25-2001, 04:51 PM
glmoy
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No clogging here with MBZ Antifreeze. Same radiator since
new.

Gary
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  #4  
Old 02-25-2001, 06:10 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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Gary,
Welcome to the big debate on which antifreeze is best. My experience with Prestone has been very good over the past 50 years. No problems with any part of the car. The last 34 years it's been with Mercedes. The only time I ever had to replace a radiator was when I bought a 1983 300SD in 1993 from an elderly couple that had bought the car new and had it serviced at the MB prescribed intervals. Of course it had the MB antifreeze in it. Two years after I bought the car, the connection where the top hose fits broke. I figured it was age and heat. Now I'm beginning to think it was the Mercedes antifreeze...
Gary, do you are anyone remember when Prestone was clear and was sold in steel quart cans. I don't know when the green dye was added
The original MB(BASF)antifreeze was also clear. I now hear that it is orange in color. Isn't that the same color as Zerex. Zerex is made by Valvoline. They also make Glysantin G 05 that is used Mercedes. Valvoline has their headquarters here in Lexington and when I called to inquire where I could the Glysantin, I was told it was not for sale to the general public. I would have to buy it from a Mercedes dealer. If it's so good, why don't they let the public buy it?
Gary(G.L.Moy),you say you bought a bottle for $12 at a local auto parts store. I've tried all the auto stores in Lexington and can't find it anywhere.None
of them had never heard of it. They also laughed when I told them of its magic powers. Most of them told me to be safe and use either Prestone or Zerex. I agree. Which store did you buy the Glysantin G 05? I will await your reply.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of Valvoline's Glysantin G 05.
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2001, 07:06 PM
glmoy
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Bill,
You said "Gary, do you are anyone remember when Prestone was clear and was sold in steel quart cans."

Sorry before my time. Do however remember metal oil cans.

Gary(G.L.Moy),you say you bought a bottle for $12 at a local auto parts store. I've tried all the auto stores in
Lexington and can't find it anywhere.None

They got it from their oil supplier, who handles Valvoline.
Their is a part # on the bottle besides the MBZ part number
it is VFF84697A on the front of the bottle and VBF84697A
now this could be the front and back label numbers, or
perhaps the Valvoline p/n F84697A.

From Scott, "Mercedes antifreeze, Part Number Q 1 03 0002. Fast Lane has it for $10.89 per gallon. You only
need one."

Gary

P.S. As for the water outlet breaking off, I read somewhere
on the Mercedes Mailing List that other antifreeze can
be harmful to plastic parts in the cooling system. I use
MBZ antifreeze, not worth my time to fix cooling system
if other antifreeze causes damage. Remember the Saturn
debate in the mid 90's and of course you remember the
Zerex commerical of a radiator leaking sealing itself on
TV. Zerex with its stopleak reportably plugged up a lot
of radiators and was pulled off the market.

Gary

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  #6  
Old 02-25-2001, 07:38 PM
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Here We Go Again...

First, Gary , thanks for reposting my blatant plug for PartsShop! Bill loves that stuff!

Second, Gary zrusny, "Dexcool" is a GM specification for antifreeze, not a brand name. Havoline is just one company who makes a product to those specifications. If there is a clogging problem using it, then it's likely to be due to mixing high silicate antifreeze with low silicate antifreeze, or not thoroughly flushing the cooling system before installing it.

And no, Dexcool is not "the same basic formulation" as the MB. Every automoblle manufacturer is trying to copy Mercedes, and now calling for antifreeze/coolant under their own proprietary specs. Ford, Saturn, and of course Chrysler are also on the program with their own specs as well. There are exhaustive threads on this subject already on this forum. look at either the current "Corrosion/Coolin Sys. Q?" one or the old dredged up "Coolant RED vs. GREEN" thread that has been resurfaced.

Now, Bill, "the connection where the top hose fits broke" on your 300SD because they ALL do. The newer ones have a metal sleeve inserted in them to prevent the problem. I personally, along with Gary, have heard that the phosphates help dry out the plastic and make it more brittle, so believe what you want. If anything, Mercedes Antifreeze/coolant product should help postpone it more than cause it.

Also, your question, "If it's so good, why don't they let the public buy it?" They do, from a Mercedes dealer, and suppliers like PartsShop on the internet. Why doesn't Valvoline sell it directly as a Valvoline product? Simple answer - BASF used to make the coolant for Mercedes in the U.S., and decided that they didn't want to anymore, so they licensed the production rights of their antifreeze/coolant division to Valvoline.

I'm sure that the agreement was inclusive of a "grandfather" contract with Mercedes to exclusively manufacture the product for them, at least for a specified period of time. Eventually, it may be available as a Valvoline product, but so far Valvoline already has their own non-phosphate extended life antifreeze/coolant they market. So what's the benefit to them to do so?

"They also laughed when I told them of its magic powers" of course they did, they don't sell it, and haven't done their homework on antifreeze/coolants. So did all of the auto parts stores I called at first, along with all of the radiator shops. They don't know squat about this subject. :p

But who's going to admit that they don't know something when it's more fun to laugh and ridicule something you know nothing about instead?
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Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2001, 11:24 PM
glmoy
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Thanks Scott,
BTW for what its worth only have changed one water pump in
206,000 miles. Tip: replace bolts when putting in new pump,
not worth breaking one when you have to do the job again. Cheap insurance.

MB Antifreeze Gary
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  #8  
Old 02-25-2001, 11:35 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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Scott,
Every thing you say about MB antifreeze makes sense to me. Every thing I read about all the other brands of antifreeze also makes sense to me.
We all know Ashland Oil's Valvoline division makes the Mercedes antifreeze Glysantin G05. Ashland Oil's main refinery is in Ashland,Ky.
Did you know that Prestone is owned by Honeywell? It is, and now General Electric is dickering to buy Honeywell.GE is the company that says "We bring good things to life". With a moto like that, do you think they would want to buy a company making that Pee-Green stuff that is destroying 80% of the cars on US highways? GE is an old and reliable company. I think highly of them. They have been good to me.
Do you think we should sell our shares of GE stock, if they realy do start selling the Pee-Green stuff. Remember, They bring good things to life.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of Valvoline. The maker of MBs antifreeze.
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  #9  
Old 02-26-2001, 12:10 AM
Wm. Lewallen
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Scott, G.L.M.and others,
Because Valvoline has their headquarters here in Lexington, I called them and asked them where I could buy Glysantin G 05. I was told that it was available only at Mercedes dealers. Being persistent, I went to their huge distribution center on Old Frankfort Pike and asked for it. At first they didn't know what I was looking for. Then someone came in and said,"Oh, that's the stuff we sell to James Motors". James Motors is our local Mercedes dealer.
If the stuff is so great, you would think the people that sell it would know more about it.They probably don't sell enough of it to register with them. They did say that they sold a lot of Zerex.It's made by Ashland's Valvoline Div.
If Glysantin is really so good, why not sell it in all the Auto Parts Stores. With it's magical powers, Ashland Oil would make a fortune.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.
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  #10  
Old 02-26-2001, 01:41 AM
longston's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mark West, CA
Posts: 787
Bill, Bill, Bill...

Please, slow down long enough to read all of the threads that have been posted about this subject?

I for one, respect your viewpoint, and experience. But this is a new day, and there is plenty of time for us "old dogs" to learn the "new tricks". I have already answered your questions, and you at least seem to be impressed with my answers and ability to do the research, so why not both read, and consider the information I have compiled? I respect your ability to reason, and your wisdom to know what's right and wrong.

Decide for yourself, but share what you have learned from considering ALL of the information available to you.

And, GE may change the way that things are done at Prestone, but I believe that the die has already been cast, and the age of "GREEN" coolant is already coming to an end as we exchange these ideas....

BTW, GE has the BEST (and lowest) auto insurance rates going! Forget GEICO, Progressive, and all of the others... Check them out if you want to pay less for auto insurance. Their policies are written by Colonial Penn Franklin Insurance Company in Fort Washington, PA: 1-800-269-6335.

Get a quote, save some money, and send it to me!
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"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."
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  #11  
Old 02-26-2001, 06:33 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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Scott,
About insurance on our MBs; We have insurance with State Farm Insurance of Murfreesboro,TN. Have for over 50 years. We do not carry collision on any of them. Foolish to do so when the "newest one" is 18 years old. Here is what we pay:
1982 300D turbo:
Bodily injury/property damage liability $105.57
Personal injury protection $15.98
Comprehensive $21.25
Emergency road service $1.60
----
Total for 6mo.$154.87
We pay about the same for the other two MBs. This figure is for 6 months, so you can see we pay quite a bit for auto insurance. If we can save with someone else, let me know.
State Farm has been good to us.They have a claims office within 5 miles of our home. On the rare occasions when we have a comp. claim. We just drive the car in. The adjuster looks it over and if we agree, State Farm writes us a check for the damage. Like the time my daughter hit a deer with a 450SE.No hassle. State Farm paid. Their have been other occasions. I will await your reply.
Trivia question for all you trivia nuts. What is the only common word in the English langauge that has three consecutive double letters in its spelling? Example:
abc(xx)(yy)(zz)def.
I am not a trivia fan myself.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of fast horses, and pretty women. Or is it the other way around?
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  #12  
Old 02-26-2001, 08:04 PM
longston's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mark West, CA
Posts: 787
New Insurance Thread?

I carry full insurance on both of my cars. State Farm is the only insurance carrier who can beat my rates because they operate on a seniority basis, offering lower rates for customer loyalty. Here's what I would pay for coverage on my 18 year old Mercedes through GE:

Bodily Injury Liability:
$50,000.00 per person /$100,000.00 per occurrence = $129.10

Property Damage Liability: $25,000.00 = $ 60.10

Excess Medical Expense: $1,000.00 per person = $ 8.40

Uninsured/Underinsured Motorists Bodily Injury:
$30,000.00 per person /$60,000.00 per occurrence = $ 22.80

Comprehensive:
Actual cash value minus $500.00 deductible = $ 58.00

Towing & Labor (Road Service):
$50.00 per disablement - INCLUDED

Rental Reimbursement:
$25.00 per day to a maximunm of $750.00 - INCLUDED

Collision:
Actual cash value minus $500.00 deductible = $123.50

Total yearly premium - = $401.90

If I understand your figures correctly, you pay $309.74 without collision, so if I deducted that from my projected policy, I would be paying a whopping $278.40, a whole $31.34 less per year than you.

And I know the answer to the trivia question, but why spoil it for someone else?
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  #13  
Old 02-26-2001, 08:08 PM
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Don't mean to stir up the waters here in the midst of the great coolant debate, but I do have a question for someone on the list with a REAL chemistry background.

If non-MB coolant will destroy "plastic" parts in the MB vehicle, how is it that this nations chemical mfgs. are able to ship extremely corrosive chemicals in "plastic" bottles?

I use MB coolant just to cover the bases, but like Bill, I'm leary of this MB coolant debate. I may not be comparing apples-to-apples, but I believe that most of the aluminum used in autos is pretty much the same. How is it that 2 of my Japanese vehicles have gone 550,000 miles collectively on Prestone(evil green stuff) without replacing the radiators,
losing a head gasket, or any of the other things that can happen?

Just a thought.
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  #14  
Old 02-26-2001, 09:30 PM
hudoff
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First an answer from a "real" chemist. The corrosion proof bottles are usually made of Nalgene which is a variety of
polyethylene. There are bottles that are also made of Teflon that are really expensive. I've seen very expensive materials ($1000.00 Gram) shipped in alumnium bottles and at one time weighed out a sample from a 250 gram bottle, you do the math.
To add a little spice here can anyone remember that there were two types of antifreeze available? The permanent type- ethylene glycol based and the other which was based on methanol.
BTW when I was in graduate school in Indiana, one night it was getting real cold. One of the other chem grad students put a gallon of pure glycerin in his radiator to prevent it from freezing. I think at that time it was worth about $100.00 a gallon. Sure puts MB coolant to shame pricewise.
Enjoy...
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  #15  
Old 02-26-2001, 09:55 PM
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Apples To Oranges...

Well, very good questions, Mike!

But you already use the Mercedes Antifreeze/Coolant, so let's not be comparing Japanese autos to Mercedes, shall we?

Seriously, no one to my knowledge has said that "...non-MB coolant will destroy "plastic" parts in the MB vehicle.... Strictly hearsay at this point, but I (and other members) have heard from several sources that the phosphates do contribute to making the plastic coolant tanks brittle before their time.

And the "soft" plastic used in bottles in no way compares to the "Hard" plastic in radiator tanks. Two completely different types of plastic. For instance, the "soft" stuff wouldn't be able to take the heat and pressure of the radiator and cooling system. :p

Now, as for aluminum. There are various formulas for making any alloy, and the Japanese, American, and German auto industries all use different formulas. So they are really not "pretty much the same". Besides, aluminum is only one engine component that is part of the overall "problem" with using an Antifreeze/Coolant with Phosphate corrosion inhibitors in it.

Hey Mike, maybe you have really soft water where you live, and you have just done an outstanding job on maintenance?
Or maybe they'll both fall apart tommorrow...

So why is it that Japanese auto companies call for a "low silicate" Antifreeze/Coolant, while the German ones prefer "high Silicate"? I don't know as yet, because so far, it hasn't mattered to me as someone who doesn't own any Japanese cars. But I'd venture a guess that they are two entirely different engine systems requiring substantially different forms of maintenance? Just never combine the High & Low silicate formulas, or they will form a gooey clog.

Finally, when is all said and done, just why are the Japanese auto companies themselves also reformulating Antifreeze/Coolant specifications on their cars to be similar to the organic acid corrosion inhibitors that everyone else is making to copy Mercedes?

[Edited by longston on 02-28-2001 at 02:35 PM]
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