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  #16  
Old 05-08-2001, 10:51 AM
benzlover
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i have also tried ww in my 1995 s class with a 50/50 mixture of h2o and mb antifreze and see absolutely no difference in the way my car runs, running temp or proforemace the only difference it made was in my wallet dont waste ur money on it.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2001, 03:50 PM
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Hard Facts...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wm. Lewallen
There are only two companies that produce ethylene glycol in the US. Texaco is the other one.

It seems as though Mercedes does not know that the Texaco plant is back on line, because they are still selling their antifreeze for about $15/gal. Maybe the extra $10 is for the MB logo.
Sorry Bill, there are at least 10 major EG manufacturers in the U.S., including BASF, Celanese, Dow Corning, Eastman, Equistar, Formosa, Huntsman, PD Glycol, Shell, and Union Carbide.

And comparing regular EG based antifreeze with phosphate based corrosion inhibitors to Mercedes Benz antifreeze is ridiculous. The only valid comparison would be with other auto manufacturers' products sold through their dealerships, or with EG antifreeze that contains organic acid corrosion inhibitors, which all sell for similar prices...

Now, on to Valvoline/Zerex. In a conversation this morning with a high ranking chemical engineer at Valvoline, I was told that Valvoline does make their own antifreeze for both Mercedes Benz, as well as their own Zerex brand. They get their EG from the BASF plant in Geismer, LA, and blend and bottle it in the Valvoline plants located in Houston, Pittsburg, and Chicago. They have no relationship with Texaco/Havolive outside of a competition for market share.

Some History. BASF has owned Zerex since 1958, and has made the Glysantin G 05 antifreeze for Mercedes for over 20 years now. In 1994, Valvoline bought Zerex, and partnered with BASF to continue to produce the antifreeze here in the U.S. and Canada. Valvoline/Zerex/BASF also produces a EG based antifreeze with a Glysantin G 48 corrosion inhibitor package that they manufacture under contract to BMW, SAAB, & Volvo.

All Chrysler products will be using a factory-fill of a specially produced G 05 antifreeze, and starting next year, Ford will also have their own formulation containing G 05 made by Valvoline/Zerex as well. GM is also looking into the possibility of totally eliminating DexCoolŽ in favor of a G 05 antifreeze. Oh, and Preston is currently for sale...
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  #18  
Old 05-08-2001, 04:06 PM
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Isnt Water Wetter good for track use as it is not slippery like anti freeze?

I use straight water on my Porsche 944 when on track. There would be nothing worse than breaking a hose an spinning out because of your own green juice! (another reason for the 911 purists to frown on the Porsche water pumpers). But these thoughts are really for the Rennlist.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-2001, 04:58 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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I hate to say this about my friend Scott L., but me thinks he has been at the winery too long. If he, or any one else, would just take time to read the label on the Prestone antifreeze container, you might find some facts that might surprise you. You may find that it is as good as the stuff made by Valvoline for Mercedes. It(Prestone) may be even better,since I have never had to replace any of my radiators that had Prestone. I did have to replace the radiator in my 1983 300SD last summer and it had the Mercedes antifreeze.
As for the number of companies making ethylene glycol, I was told by a knowledgeable person that there were only two companies in the United States that made ethylene glycol. Maybe he too had been at the winery too long.
Bill Lewallen:Lexington,Ky. Home of Valvoline Oil
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  #20  
Old 05-08-2001, 05:40 PM
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Traitor! (What Would The Colonel Say?)...

That's what the guy at Valvoline called you, Bill.

A traitor to the cause of a fine local company headquartered in Lexington, Kentucky as compared to a "Yankee" company like Prestone, that's headquartered in Conneticut...

But he meant it in a good natured way...

And what I was replying to from you was the COST factor you referenced. So please knock off the smart alec comments about the wineries, and the hard sell on the Prestone.

But! Surprise! Prestone even makes an antifreeze or two that are Mercedes/BASF copy-cat products. If the green stuff were all that great, why would they bother to try to mimic the MB stuff? Never mind, I gave up trying to get you to even consider the value of Mercedes antifreeze a long time ago. You're just too stubborn, and you're also entitled to your own opinion. Even if I think your reasoning is flawed, I still respect you...

As for me, I've been on the phone and the computer all morning just trying to get factual answers for these issues...

Here's some points about Water Wetter after just getting off of the phone with them.

First, Patrick does have a great point about reduced adhesion from a blown water hose. Absolutely correct and well put.

Next, WW has a specific purpose that no one is likely to fully experience or appreciate while using it in their cars to just drive around town, or on the highway. Where you really see a difference is under extreme conditions like racing, pulling a steep grade, or pulling a trailer.

I drove from my home to SF on Friday morning. The drive is about 65 miles, and the car ran great at 75-80 mph all the way, except for this one problem. As you drive south on U.S. 101 approaching the Golden Gate Bridge, you have to pull a long grade before you get there. Going up, at 75mph, my engine temperature began to climb up as high as 100°C. I backed off, and reduced speed near the summit, and the temp still climbed up to 110°C. As I bgan to descend the grade, my guage slowly dropped back to around 100°C, and didn't get back down to 90°C until I was on the bridge, aided by the cool ocean and bay breezes. If I had WW in my cooling system, the car would not have heated up as quickly, as much, and would have cooled down sooner after I topped the summit of Waldo Grade.
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  #21  
Old 05-08-2001, 06:25 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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Scott,
So much for the fun poking, but my wife really is a Kentucky Colonel. We went to Pineville,Ky last Fri.and we kept up with traffic in her 1983 300SD.This is the car I had to replace the radiator last summer because of improper antifreeze (MB brand) That meant driving at 80-85mph(with AC). Some of those grades on I-75 are as much as 3 miles long, and just as soon as you get over one hill you start over another one. Never did the car get near the 100C mark. The temp gauge stayed a bit above the 80C mark. Of course the car had a new radiator and a fairly fresh mixture of 50/50 Prestone and water. No Water Wetter. Or is it Wetter Water. What ever, save your money. Spend it on your winery.
Bill Lewallen; Lexington,Ky. Where diesels purr and turbos whirr....
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  #22  
Old 05-09-2001, 02:48 AM
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You've really got it!

Yes JimF, you've really got it!

To add to the anecodotal evidence, I ran 80/20 water/coolant and one bottle of WW on our vacation to Las Vegas last summer. The E500 endured 120 degree heat, a day of racing at the track and another day of top speed running down the highway...140mph with air conditioning! The temp gauge stayed within it's normal range all the time...and I'm told by others that is a little unusual for the M119.

I'll be adding WaterWetter again this summer for sure
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  #23  
Old 05-09-2001, 01:55 PM
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I've really enjoyed this discussion. If I can summarize my understanding, cooling of the cylinder head is the point of water wetter. The radiator temp (the car gauge that will rise to thermostat level) is our readout and can be a symptom of cylinder head temp. The only reason to run some anti-freeze in the summer is the possibility of A/C freeze up and increase system max temperature with a pressurized cap. Water Wetter should lower the cylinder head temp in proportion to the amount of water in your radiator system. The only question I see unanswered is the "plastic radiator issue" and its relevance to long term radiator replacement. Are the radiators constructed with the same materials now? I thank BillW, Scott and JimF for their thorough input.
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  #24  
Old 05-09-2001, 08:49 PM
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Thank YOU, Roger...

Quote:
Originally posted by rbauman
If I can summarize my understanding, cooling of the cylinder head is the point of water wetter.
Not the only point. You really have to go to the Redline website and select products, then Water Wetter, then click on the link to the description to get a real overview of everything it does.

Quote:
Originally posted by rbauman
The radiator temp (the car gauge that will rise to thermostat level) is our readout and can be a symptom of cylinder head temp.
The temperature gauge only "accurately" shows the temperature of the cooling system media at the point where the temp sender unit is located in the engine, and does not allow for accurate temp readings in other areas of the engine, including the cylinder head(s), cooling jackets around the cylinder walls, etc., where "hot spots" can occur.

Quote:
Originally posted by rbauman
The only reason to run some anti-freeze in the summer is the possibility of A/C freeze up and increase system max temperature with a pressurized cap.
Another important function of antifreeze is anti-corrosion and scaling protection, and to keep whatever minerals might be in the water from forming deposits in the cooling system. Unless what you are saying is in relation to using plain water with Water Wetter. I would still use antifreeze in the summer, and only run the mix that Jim does, if you live in a similar climate to where he lives (San Diego).

Quote:
Originally posted by rbauman
Water Wetter should lower the cylinder head temp in proportion to the amount of water in your radiator system.
I doubt that Water Wetter lowers temperature in and of itself. What it does is what the name implies, and that is to help water do the cooling better via more efficient heat transfer from extremely hot surfaces to the cooling medium.

But the proportion of the water to antifreeze is more relevant than the use of Water Wetter with the exception of instances of extreme operating conditions, where and when it performs best.

Quote:
Originally posted by rbauman
The only question I see unanswered is the "plastic radiator issue" and its relevance to long term radiator replacement. Are the radiators constructed with the same materials now? I thank BillW, Scott and JimF for their thorough input.

The original radiators that used plastic tanks were manufactured using less heat resistant plastics, and did not include the metal sleeve inserts for added strength that the newer replacements now all have. The cooling tubes and fins were, and are, all made of aluminum.

Just about all of the original factory BEHR radiators that had those plastic tanks with the old style plastic, have by now, broken and been replaced. It is a very common problem.

[Edited by longston on 05-09-2001 at 07:54 PM]
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  #25  
Old 05-09-2001, 09:46 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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To all,
I have a 1977 MB 300D that I bought from a lady (with a PHD I might add)that had run the car till the oil ran out and the engine locked up. Number two rod seized. I rebuilt the engine in 1982 and the car has had a 50/50 mix of water and Prestone antifreeze since then. That's been 19 years and I've only changed the antifreeze once.That Prestone just lasts and lasts and lasts. It still has the original radiator. This car runs so cool the aux. fan never comes on. The fan is good and so is the relay, 212 switch and all the wiring.It runs cool at highway speeds with AC going full blast.
Even if I believed that this Wetter Water stuff would make my engine run cooler,I don't think I need it.
By the way; whatever happened to STP that Andy Granetalle(?)used to hawk on TV.He claimed it would make a worn out engine like new if you would just add STP to your oil. I never believed STP could make your worn out engine like new, and I don't believe Wetter Water is going to make your engine run cooler.
If you really think it does, I still have some ocean front property here in Central Kentucky that I would like to sell to you. Real cheap...
Bill Lewallen; Lexington,Ky. Home of RDC Bearings
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  #26  
Old 05-10-2001, 01:53 AM
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Talk about Luck!

Well, it's my turn to pick on you just a bit! You had me believing almost everything you said until you cooked your own goose with this quote.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wm. Lewallen
I rebuilt the engine in 1982 and the car has had a 50/50 mix of water and Prestone antifreeze since then. That's been 19 years and I've only changed the antifreeze once.
Bill, you aren't smart, just lucky! 19 years and one anti-freeze change? Wow, I know where we can buy some Lotto tickets. Current jackpot is $20,000,000!
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  #27  
Old 05-10-2001, 06:09 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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Jim F,
I may have fudged a bit on the number of antifreeze changes. I just don't change it as often as I do the oil. Too hard to reach the drain plug in the block. The plug on the radiator only drains a small part of the Prestone/water coolant.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of RDC Bearings....
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  #28  
Old 05-11-2001, 01:28 PM
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Incredible information here, awesome discussion. Just thought I would add my 2 cents. I have never added WW, but used both "green" and MB antifreeze, the temp on the guage was the same both cases. I have replaced the radiator (nothing to do with the antifreeze), the water pump and thermostat. My car has always run around 80-85 C, the only time it ever rises from there is in heavy traffic, with or with out the A/C on. Just my experience and minimal know how, compared to the rest. Thanks!
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  #29  
Old 05-12-2001, 03:15 PM
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Neat Tester!

The antifreeze/water mixture in my car was not even close to what I thought it was!!!!

The car's AF was changed at the dealer just before I bought it and I assumed (there's that word again!) it was 50/50% to start with. Bad assumption!

[my convention: xx/yy% = anti-freeze/water]

So in doing my calcs to get to 30/70 or 20/80, I removed what I thought was enough coolant. But enough to err on the conservative side. Remember this 'experiment' is to see how better it cools with Water Wetter (WW) starting from a 50/50 solution, so I thought!

Today, I picked up a AF tester made by Prestone (to make Bill Lewallen happy!) and used it to test my mixture.

WOW! Not even close. It's very close to 40/60% not 20/80%! So it MUST have been around 70/30% to start with! That was my point in one of my earlier posts. It's hard to really know unless you test it YOURSELF!

I've marked the concentration points on the picture so it's very easy to read your car's mixture ratio based on temperature in C. The RED pointer indicates the freezing point protection. Do this with a cool (cold) readiator and fill the tester to the indicated mark. The Prestone PN is AF1420P. $2.89 at AutoZone.



All this started because I want a year round mixture ratio that does not need to be changed. In San Diego, the temp averages 71 F. The coldest it gets is possibly 36 F.

We go into the mountains in the winter and it gets to no colder than -5F (-20C). So that where I'd like to set the car's mixture ratio. That works out to 40/60 ratio min! That should give adequate protection. I wonder how much cooler it would be with 20/80% and Water Wetter? Probably never know.

So even for me in SD, my original idea of 20/80% is NG and a 35/65% ratio would be probably the absolute minimum acceptable ratio. If I were to always drive in SD only, then it probably would be ok. But for the colder climates it is a disaster waiting to happen.

Even 40/60% may be very problematic for some cold northern climates.

So all previous comments reflect a 40/60% mixture with WW, not an 20/80% mixture which started from 70/30% mixture.

[Edited by JimF on 05-15-2001 at 12:49 PM]
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  #30  
Old 05-12-2001, 03:56 PM
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Also,
When using this tester, it is best to test the mixture
by draining a cup full from the radiator drain plug.
Many top off with straight AF in the tank and that gives incorrect readings.
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