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  #1  
Old 05-05-2001, 09:24 PM
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Is it compatible with all antifreeze available? I see The Prestone long life is phosphate free like the MB antifreeze. But will Red Line Wtarer Wetter cause any problems with the Prestone orange or Mb antifreeze?
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2001, 10:21 PM
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'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
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WW

It's compatible! Check for yourself, here's the link:
http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/watrwet.htm

Great stuff; made a large difference in my car. But, like most cars, had an 80/20 mixture of anti-freeze/water.

After flipping the ratio around (20/80) plus 1-1/2 cans of WW, it really runs cool. How cool? 85F day, 80% RH, no A/C, highway driving runs it to 82-85C.

[Edited by JimF on 05-09-2001 at 03:18 PM]
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2001, 11:46 PM
Jason M.
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Correct me if Im wrong, but isn't the thermostat supposed to control the temperature of the car? If the temperature reaches the set level, the thermostat opens and allows coolant to circulate, cooling the engine. So if this is the case, how would water wetter make the engine run cooler, if the cooling system was already functioning properly? I have a very clean cooling system, a new water pump, and a 50/50 mix of water/coolant. In S. Florida on a 90 degree day with the AC on, it hits 85 degrees celcius on the temp guage... The same that you said for your car on a 75 degree day without A/C and being on the highway. So really, what difference does the stuff make if your cooling system functions properly.

Jason M.
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2001, 01:04 AM
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I experimented with Water Wetter a couple of summers ago - south Texas - kinda warm.

Ran all sorts of different Coolant-H2O-Water Wetter ratios and saw no difference from the perspective of the temp. gauge.

I wonder if this stuff is like the Body Solutions formula I keep hearing about on the radio - lost 40 lbs. in 6 weeks and drank beer for supper every night.

Who knows?
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  #5  
Old 05-06-2001, 07:45 AM
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When I bought my car the previous owner had put in non MB coolant. This tends to clog the radiator. Driving in th West Virginia mountains on a 90 degree day the temp would rise to close to 110 and not drop below 100. After having the radiator flushed it was more like 105. After water wetter it would rise but cool to normal in less than a quarter of a mile downhill.

It works but I have this fear of clogging up my radiator even further.
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  #6  
Old 05-06-2001, 09:58 AM
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After speaking with the chem. engineer at Havolin responsible for their formulation (Havolin formulates for MB in America - BASF in Europe), I tend to think that Water Wetter is snake oil. I do believe that RedLine produces the best lubrication products. If Water Wetter works as claimed, the temperature gauge would register higher coolant temps rather than lower. WW does not improve the heat transfer in the radiator. It is claimed to improve heat transfer in the cylinder head by reducing nucleate boiling that prevents heat transfer. This would result in higher coolant temperatures. I have seen no real test results to prove their claims, only anecdotal testimony. The Havolin guy has been in the business for 30 years and has developed coolants for everything from autos to NASA space vehicles. His point was that if there were a compound that performed as WW claimed it would be in everyone's coolant formula by now. There are higher performing coolants available but they tend to be flamable creating other problems and liabilities.
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  #7  
Old 05-06-2001, 03:57 PM
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Lou, Where Did You Hear All This?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lou Nielsen
After speaking with the chem. engineer at Havolin responsible for their formulation (Havolin formulates for MB in America - BASF in Europe)
This is utterly untrue. Havoline has nothing to do with Mercedes antifreeze at all. True, the Mercedes antifreeze is manufactured in Europe by BASF, who holds the trademark and patents on Glysantin G 05, the anticorrosion agent used in Mercedes antifreeze. But not too long ago, BASF USA decided that they no longer wanted to manufacture antifreeze in the U.S., and licensed the manufacturing rights to Valvoline/Zerex, not Texaco/Havoline.

Check for yourself:

http://www.havoline.com

http://www.valvoline.com/index_products.html (click on Technical Bulletin)

Oh, and Lou, why are you talking to engineers at companies who don't manufacture a certain product about that product? The simple fact is, they don't make it. Call up an engineer at Redline and ask them to explain water wetter to you. It isn't "snake oil". Redline doesn't manufacture a single product that hasn't been race-proven, or could be classified as "snake oil". You should go to: http://www.redlineoil.com/products.htm and carefully read the specifications for WW and understand what it does and how it works. Your dismissal of it as a "snake oil" tells me that you do not fully understand it.

Besides the final rationale you offer that the engineer you spoke to said, "that if there were a compound that performed as WW claimed it would be in everyone's coolant formula by now" is amazing to me.

Every antifreeze manufacturer on the market denied that Mercedes formulated coolant was any better than theirs, and are now scrambling to create copy-cat organic acid based corrosion inhibitor antifreezes just like what BASF has made for Mercedes for years.

The oil companies all once claimed that synthetic oils were "snake oils", and some even used to go so far as to say that synthetic would damage your engine, or cause it to leak oil. But there isn't one of them now that doesn't have a synthetic oil product for sale.

Believe me, IF the antifreeze manufacturers could steal or duplicate the formula for "Water Wetter", then, and only then, "it would be in everyone's coolant formula"...

Finally, your statement: "There are higher performing coolants available but they tend to be flamable creating other problems and liabilities.". Sorry Lou, the highest performing coolant on the planet is plain water.

I would not use any other antifreeze/coolant in a Mercedes Benz, other than the Mercedes branded, part # Q 1 03 0002, mixed with demineralized water.

BTW, it's available from FastLane & PartsShop...
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2001, 06:05 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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To all,
Scott is right about the MB antifreeze. It is not made by Havoline(Texaco).It is made by Valvoline Oil a division of Marathon-Ashland Oil. Valvoline has there headquartes here in Lexington, but no mfg.facilities are located here. Where their antifreeze for Mercedes is formulated is anyones guess, since Valvoline does not make ethylene glycol.
As for using Wetter Water to make your engine run cooler(if you think it really does, I have some ocean front property here in Central Kentucky that I would just love to sell to you),save your money and just use plain water with no antifreeze to get your car to run cooler. Plain water will transfer heat better and faster than a mixture of antifreeze and water.
Bill Lewallen; Lexington,Ky.The Blue Grass State,but the grass is really green and so is our antifreeze. Has been for over 50 years...no problems.No dissolved radiators..
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2001, 12:51 AM
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Let's say for the sake of discussion that Water Wetter really did what it claims to do.

Would you REALLY want it to run the system COOLER?

Various systems under the hood require a given temp. in order to operate properly. If that temp. is not reached, could these systems be hampered by a system that's now running TOO cool?

Who knows?
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2001, 01:34 AM
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Why WW?

My point of 80/20 mixture and WW was to lower the operating engine temperature from 110C to something like 90-95C. The reason is not based on 'myth' but maintaining engine performance with the gas we have in CA (91 octane max).

Per WW: Coolant Effects on Performance
Under moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures by 1°F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45°F. This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically 3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensors (my S500) will retard the timing to compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5°, which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%.

Agreed that there is a "TOO" cool engine temperature but, per MB specs, anything past 80C is OK and that temp or greater is where "warm" engine tests are run.

If you can achieve a temperature difference as mentioned above (110C to 90C), that gives a 68F engine temperature difference. That roughly amounts to 8° LESS of retarded timing. Guess why I like the lower temperature operation?

So if you can get close to that, the car's happy, and it has much more power! This makes me happy!
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2001, 05:53 PM
Wm. Lewallen
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To All,
Antifreeze (any brand, including the Mercedes stuff) will not make your car run any cooler. What it does is raise the boiling point of the coolant in your car. This allows us to operate our cars at higher temp. without fear of them boiling over. Using a 15lb pressure cap, a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water raises the boiling point to 265 degrees F. It also lowers the freezing point to -34F. That is the main reason we use antifreeze. To keep our engines from freezing.
As for which brand of antifreeze you use, I care not. I'll stick with Prestone. Have for 50 years. You can have your Mercedes antifreeze, and keep on replacing you plastic padiators.
Bill Lewallen; Lexington,Ky. Home of Jif Peanut Butter...
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2001, 11:31 PM
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First, I want to Thank Lou Nielsen...

Since I have been a member here, I have learned a lot, done a lot of research to find my own answers to questions, enjoyed reading other members comments, and had some disagreements with other some of those members. Some of the disagreements were reasonably pleasant, and others were not. But, I have never had another member who had valid points to make in rebuttal to my response to their posting email me privately to make their point rather than rightfully take me to task in the forums.

Thank you, Lou. You are a rare gentleman, and courteous to a fault. Even I, who respect courtesy and consideration could, it seems, learn a large lesson from you about how we should handle ourselves on these forums. I salute you...

Lou's point to me was that I needed to continue my research further to disclose just how Valvoline/Zerex manages to manufacture a product without a facility to do it in, and using a product that, he points out, is likely supplied by Texaco/Havoline to them. I don't have the answer yet, but I will do the homework and get to the bottom of this. For starters, I would respond that it was my understanding that Dow Corning is who actually manufacturers all Ethylene and Propylene Glycol in this country for all antifreeze sellers.

As to the original topic of Redline's Water Wetter, are we all missing the point here, and have overlooked the intended purpose and application of WW?

After reviewing the data provided by Redline on their website, I came to the conclusion that WW is: primarily designed to REPLACE, not supplement antifreeze when mixed with water in our cooling systems, to provide better surface contact with and overall heat transfer from the cylinder heads to the cooling medium, and in doing so, prevent preignition and detonation. In addition, it provides better corrosion and cavitation erosion protection in the water pump and cylinder head(s), as well as improved anti-scaling of the overall cooling system. But the primary function seems to be cooling to aid in combustion performance of the engine, not to just help it run cooler.

The fact that Jim gets good results while others may not, seems to have to do more with the antifreeze to water ratio he uses when using Water Wetter.

Go to the link that Jim provided, and read the specs for yourself. You may get something else out of this that I missed. Meanwhile, I will be calling Redline to pose some additional questions of my own tommorrow...



[Edited by longston on 05-08-2001 at 03:25 PM]
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  #13  
Old 05-08-2001, 12:18 AM
Wm. Lewallen
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Scott and Others,
Dow Corning is the other company that makes ethylene glycol that I have been trying to remember. There are only two companies that produce ethylene glycol in the US. Texaco is the other one.
Do any of you remember a few years back when the Texaco plant in Louisiana burned down, and the price of antifreeze went from about $4.00/gal to over $15.00? Texaco has since rebuilt their plant and the price of antifreeze has returned to about $4.95/gal. It seems as though Mercedes does not know that the Texaco plant is back on line, because they are still selling their antifreeze for about $15/gal. Maybe the extra $10 is for the MB logo.
Bill Lewallen;Lexington,Ky. The Blue Grass State; but the grass is really green,and so is our antifreeze.
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2001, 01:19 AM
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Just to clarify. Water Wetter reduces the surface tension of the coolant which helps to dissapate heat from around the cylinders. These temps will not normally show on the guage. The temp you see on the guage is an average. The temps around the cylinders is a lot hotter and this is what you want to keep cool. Heat and poor lubrication are engine killers.
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2001, 01:23 AM
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'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
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By jove, I think you've got it!

Quote:
Originally posted by longston
The fact that Jim gets good results while others may not, seems to have to do more with the antifreeze to water ratio he uses when using Water Wetter.
Precisely my point. Water *IS* the best coolant. Most owners, unless they do it themselves with complete coolant removal, have much more than 50/50 mixture. Hey, I thought at one time that "lots" of anti-freeze was better!

Per WW, you need about 20% of anti-freeze to prevent some 'freezing' due to your A/C but with that 80/20% mixture and a 12 oz of WW, you gain the *BEST* of both worlds; water's cooling properties and WW's wetting properties. All this for what? To preserve more of your horsepower due to less engine heat.

[Edited by JimF on 05-08-2001 at 05:17 PM]
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