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  #16  
Old 03-19-2002, 11:28 AM
ck42's Avatar
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Ahh...I knew there was something I must be missing...this solution seemed too obvious.
I'm still waiting to get my *first* mb diesel so I didn't realize that this particular issue existed.

So...as for an answer: I don't know

If you're familiar with the oil cooler lines routing, do you see any way that this kit could be adapted?

Please forgive my ignorance....but what exactly is a cartridge type filter? as compared to the spin-on type? The only type I've ever used or seen is the type that 'spins on'.

Last edited by ck42; 03-19-2002 at 11:40 AM.
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  #17  
Old 03-19-2002, 11:31 AM
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I don't like the idea of using the drain plug, either. I have visions of hitting a hard bump and having the hose get cut, scraped, or whatever and oil going everywhere. So, I was assuming I'd be tapping into the side of the oil pan.

On the thread size for the oil sending unit - beats me. It seems that that is the $64 question. I haven't really looked at it.
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1987 300SDL 265,000 mi.
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  #18  
Old 03-19-2002, 12:00 PM
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Thumbs up OEM Bypass Filtration ?

I'm not sure of any other model but I know that in their wisdom those german engineers have already designed and installed a built in bypass filter on my 603 engine in my 87 SDL. On this car and I assume others the oil filter has two seperate elements the lower smaller portion is the regular full flow element and the larger top portion is a high filtration bypass element of the OEM cartridge filter. I suppose adding an after market bypass couldn't hurt as long as the installation was solid. The return to an adapted drain plug! you've got to be kidding that would have to be the most exposed to damage setup and the most difficult to monitor. If you didn't constantly observe your OP gage and the idiot light it wouldn't be long after you oil was pumped out onto the roadway that some serious oil starvation symptoms would make themselves known.
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  #19  
Old 03-19-2002, 12:15 PM
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Billybob,

Well, duh, on having bad things happen if the line breaks. I don't recall saying anything about monitoring it, either. Again, duh.
Looking at my setup, it seems that having the return hose go through the drain plug means the hose has to have some part of it below the oil pan in order to negotiate that. It would seem to be safer having it tapped in to the side of the oil pan.
On my 1982 300SD, I only have the single canister filter.
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  #20  
Old 03-19-2002, 02:22 PM
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Unhappy Bypass Filter, Duh?

Man, Ted, did I miss something? I'm really sorry that you mistakenly assumed that my post was somehow specifically addressing something that you may have said or not said! Duh?

It should be clear that my comment paraphrased as your "having bad things happen if the line breaks" was in reference to the rather short time period between a failure and the consequential damage that might occur. You could consider that oil circuit operating pressures, the oil pump operating volume, engine speed, and the total engine oil volume and come to the realization that at highway speeds your engine could be virtually oil-less in less than a minute. Perhaps you drive with your eye constantly affixed to your OP gage and idiot light , if so then you will undoubtedly be able to respond in the event something happens and mitigate any potential problems.

My comments regarding the wisdom of those who opt for the adapted drain plug return method was actually in reference to an earlier mention concerning VW installations, but would apply to any similar installation, you seem to have come to that same conclusion all on your own. If you read my comment regarding "monitoring" it should be clear that there again is no reference to any comment you may have offered or not offered, I was speaking simply of the difficulty of being able to regularly and effectively determine the integrity of any modification that is under the vehicle and possibly obstructed from view by such things as the belly pan on a 126 car. Perhaps your position is that any such modification of questionable design is better off secreted somewhere out of sight rather than an installation that has been sited with deliberate care to facilitate an ease of monitoring. Your choice to modify your drain pan may better suit your thinking in this regard. I could be noted the engineers who designed not only your vehicle but so many others apparently decided that in the case of oil circuitry components, particularly those that are outside of the engine itself, should be very high quality specifically engineered to prevent failure that could cause catastrophic engine damage i. e. your oil cooler hoses, it is probably no accident that these components are high strength and fitted with swaged fittings for a secure positive connections. It could certainly be worthwhile to ensure that any add-on external oil circuitry component meet or exceed this original level of design for piece of mind if for nothing else.

Last but not least regarding my original premise. If you bother to reread my comments regarding the OEM canister filter you would know that I simply pointed out that a bypass filter has been designed and integrated into the oil filtration circuit already, the filter canister that fits in the filter canister housing attached to your engine consists of two elements, the full flow and the bypass flow. The engineers at Mercedes Benz where actually capable of understanding the benefits of bypass filtration and even as far back as 1982 integrated that element into their overall design, rather than leave it to some aftermarketeer! Having read some of your earlier posts, Iíll assume that you should be able to check your CD Manual, Engine Manual, Main Function Group 18 Engine Lubrication, Sub Function Group 005, Oil Circuit, Oil Pressure, Pressure Relief Valve, and Oil Filter, PDF page 3 of 7 provides a canister filter photo and a description, while pages 4, 5, and 6 of 7 provide comprehensive schematic diagrams of oil flows and every oil circuit element! F*#%ing DUH! Happy Motoring and Good Luck!
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  #21  
Old 03-19-2002, 03:05 PM
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Well, this thread WAS fun. Oh, well...
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1987 300SDL 265,000 mi.
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  #22  
Old 03-19-2002, 04:36 PM
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Hi again. It would seem to me that the pressure across the bypass filter is rather low based on the ilustration when compared to a bypass filter with its outlet connected to the sump. Has anybody checked that? Thanks
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  #23  
Old 03-19-2002, 04:45 PM
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The pressure drop across the stcok MB diesel filter is low but the flow rate is very low. All the oil that passes through the micron bypass portion has to go through that little hole near the top of the central tube that is attached to the lid of the filter cannister. This tube directs this bypass oil back to the sump.
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2002, 02:48 AM
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Thanks for yor reply. I was referring to the BMK-13 diagram shown by ck42 and applicable to those of us that have spin on oil filters. It seems to me from the picture that since the bypass and full flow filters operate in parallel in this set up, and the intake and exit pressures differ by the pressure drop across the lines, then the effective pressure across the bypass filter seems to be rather small. An electric analogy may work here, if you have a small resistor (full flow) in parallel with a large resistor (bypass) the current division states that most wil flow through the full flow with the voltage drop (pressure differential) being the same across the two elements. So, when compared with the set-up of outlet return to the sump I think that the effective pressure is the oil pressure minus crankcase pressure. This effective pressure seems to be significantly higher than the BMK-13 set up, and since the bypass offer significant restriction to flow due to its arrestance rating (1 micron?) it would seem to me that it would work/flow better and clean faster with a higher effective pressure. Can somebody shed some light on this observation please? Thanks.
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Adam Reinosa
91 300E 190K
81 911SC 210K
61 MB 190C 90K - sold...sigh.
70 914-6 - DUI victim - sigh
911T - Fire victim
Renault Dauphine '62
67/Cougar GT;70 Challenger 440 Mag
www.wetstart.com - OEM future option coming soon
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2002, 09:49 PM
Jackd
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A word of caution is necessary here. I only worked for 27 years in the oil business for a major oil company (Started with a G like Gulf) so I probably know a thing or two about motor oil.
I am all for better and in favor of having the best filtration system and clean oil, This is an excellent insurance policy against engine problems. Amsoil probaby has a good filtration system, BUT,
if the intent is to have eternal oil and extend oil change interval to an unprecedented mileage, you will be doing more harm than good.
With time and mileage (on which manufacturers recommendations are based on) all (syntetic and mineral) oil degrades. Oxidation and acidity are a major problems with all oils. In addition, the additive package, anti foam agent , anti oxidation, anti wear, anti-acid, viscosity improvers, viscosity modifyers. dispersants, detergents and several others loose their properties. In addition, oil gets contaminated with fuel by-pass, condensation, coolant contamination etc. etc. which can not be removed by any filtration system (Amsoil's or others).
Oil needs to be replace because it deteriorates.
In the big oil labs, most oil are designed and blended with additives to roughly follow manufacturers recommendations in terms of oilo change intervals. Why would Mobil, Shell, Pennzoil or any other design oils that could last for 25,000mi when they expect the consumer will roughly follow mthe manufacturers recommendations??
Oil is not eternal. With all the lab results I have done and seen, if I could get the best filter in the world, I would never exceed 7-9,000mi between oil changes
JackD
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2002, 09:53 PM
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Adam, I think your analysis is correct. I assume that Amsoil has designed the filter and restrictor correctly to get effective filtetration. My only beef is that the filters are expensive and the bypass filter will need to be changed frequently.

There has been a lot of discussion at www.tdiclub.com around bypass filtration. I think the consensus there is that the toilet paper filters are the most cost effective approach. Some feel that on the small sump diesel engines changing the TP and topping off every 3,000 miles or so replenishes enough additives that you really never need to change the oil. Just change the full flow filter every now and again. Oil analysis will tell the tale.
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2002, 06:05 AM
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Thank you for the input Jackd and savageT. Yes, oil degrades and compared to the cost of our engines change it hot, and often........has somebody said that b4??......oil is not immortal, bypass is for solid contaminant removal (1 micron??) not for hyperextending oil life effectiveness as Jackd pointed out (additive depletion, oxidation and others......). I was only questioning the physics (read merit) of the BMK13 setup since the BMK11 (with outlet return to basically atmospheric pressure/crankcase pressure) set up is the classic way to bypass by virtue of its higher working pressure and flow. Thanks again. Later.
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91 300E 190K
81 911SC 210K
61 MB 190C 90K - sold...sigh.
70 914-6 - DUI victim - sigh
911T - Fire victim
Renault Dauphine '62
67/Cougar GT;70 Challenger 440 Mag
www.wetstart.com - OEM future option coming soon
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2002, 03:39 PM
Human Spirit
 
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For [my] Mercedes gas engine application with spin-on oil filters, I contacted Amsoil tech service about which filters they offer for my 124 body, 300E 3.0L gas engine - their reply is in quotes below. Because Amsoil does not offer dual bypass kits for Mercedes, I will contact CM Filter to see if they do. Note: The Amsoil BMK-13 dual bypass kit referenced earlier in this thread is not offered for Mercedes. (I will also post this reply in the 'Remote Oil Filter' thread.) Here is the Ansoil reply:

"For the Mercedes engines, we recommend our AMSOIL Synthetic 10W40 Heavy Duty Motor Oil (AMO). We do not have the dual bypass kits for the Mercedes, but we can supply the
BMK11 single bypass kit. The optional BE90 filter element will be needed as well. You will need the assistance of a Mercedes dealer or trained technician for the installation. The Mercedes requires a match to fit adapter for the oil pressure sender unit. There is no standardized part for this - it could be one of many ways and needs visual inspection. The 300E uses the GF217 fuel filter.

Complete description of these products may be found on our website in the product information section. For pricing and/or ordering information call 800-777-7094 from 7 AM to 5 PM Central time Monday through Friday. You may also access pricing and ordering on line in the "Company Store" section of
our website."
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  #29  
Old 03-22-2002, 06:22 PM
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Many folks in the TDI site Oil Guard because of the members who has a great reputation does not care to use Amsoil products. His contigent uses Oil Guard. The first filters used were Amsoil. A few others use the TP method, but not many. Most people do not want to be changing filters every few thousand miles.

I ran 53000 miles using BE-100 or BE-110 filters. The additive levels did not deplete, soot stayed within 3% limits, etc, etc. The Amsoil 5w30 oil is specifically forumlated to run a VERY long time. If you want to use cheaper oil that falls apart quicker then I suppose the TP method is fine.

I do have the spreadsheet of results, but don't have it convenient to get online. It was interesting that wear metals stayed fairly constant as the oil aged. Either because it continued to be filtered out, my engine had less wear, or other.

One of the neat things about bypass filters is less waste oil.

Brian
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2002, 09:00 PM
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Lightman
On the front driver side of the 300sd engine in the head is a plug that goes into the timing chain area. I used this plug to return oil into the engine on a 240d that i had and it worked fine. I drilled and brazed a fitting that i needed. The only problem is finding where to get oil under pressure so i can tap in with a "t" so i can also install a filter. The sending unit would be the best place to get the oil. As you said where to get the fittings and what size?
Bill
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